revisit the 60 Hz vs. 120 Hz debate, or not

[Stacy A]

Guys, this may be yet another dumb question from me, but I haven't had the time to plow through all the info on the web regarding this issue, so I was hoping someone here could get me back up to speed. I was a fairly early adopter of HDTV - getting my first HDTV in 2000. Back then I kept up with all the technology, but as things went on I fell out of the habit of doing that. Well, the other day my old Hitachi rear projection HDTV finally let go and we had to retire it. I was not prepared to replace a TV at the moment, not having had time to do research, pricing, etc..., so i ended up at Wal-Mart. I knew I wanted an LED LCD, I didn't care about 3D TV (waiting for the technology to stabilize), and I wanted a screen size of 50 inches (my Hitachi had been a 43 inch set). I was spending time looking for high contrast ratios and 120 Hz or more. I finally settled on a Samsung UN46C5000 LED LCD, a 46 inch TV - because there is no such thing as a 50 inch LCD and 55 inchers are just too big for the space I have. I got it home, got it set up, and then found out it was a 60 Hz tv. I was pissed. I could swear the description sign on the display TV at the store said 120 Hz. At first I wanted to take the TV back, but I've been watching it and the picture is very nice - HD movies look fantastic. So, if the 60Hz vs. 120 Hz thing isn't an issue then I'm keeping it. But, if my memory serves me right, the 120 Hz refresh rate is a requirement for true 1080p display. - In other words a 1080p 60Hz HDTV won't really show me true 1080p on my PS3. Is that true?

Thanks for any answers someone might be able to give.

 

[mike123abc]

1080p actually maxes at 60HZ. 120 is done by internal set processing.

120 is used since film is at 24 can generate 5 frames instead of 2.5 at 60, it smooths out the 3:2 pulldown. 60 can be doubled, and 30 4x.

 

[Stacy A]

So, bottom line is that my PS3 will play a BD and I will get all the picture quality I'm supposed to get, even though the TV is 60Hz? I understand about the 120 Hz and 24fps issue. I guess I will wait for my HDMI cables to get here so I can experiment with the PS3. (I ordered HDMI cables from Amazon.com because I refuse to pay the ungodly overpriced prices for cables of same quality that WM and RatShack charge around here.) I guess my technical question is - using Dish Network on a 722, HDMI cable out to the TV, the TV says [1920x1080i at 60 Hz] on the information button. I'm wondering if when I try a BD from the PS3 that the TV will detect it and then display [1920x1080p at 120 Hz] doubling up the refresh rate to meet the 24fps "even-ness" thing.

 

[diogen]

As a general rule, movies are made at 24fps (23.976 to be exact) and video - 60fps.
To do it justice when watching it, the device should be capable of 24Hz or a multiple of it (48/72/96/120...).
To be able to play both, film and video, at its native rate (24 and 60), the TV should be 120Hz or a multiple of it.

If your TV can't do 120Hz, slow horizontal pans (in movies) are not as smooth as they should be (i.e. Titanic going from the dock down into the water).

Diogen.

 

[teachsac]

BD will register as 1080p/24 when you hit the display button on the set. It shows the source material's rate not the refresh of the set.

S~

 

[jayn_j]

People tend to get excited easily over the small stuff. I believe that most will agree that the difference is noticable if you are looking for it, but not really a big deal. You have been watching 3:2 pulldown all your life and probably never noticed the issue.

It is kind of like: Take this particular disc and go to this point. Now watch this spot. Now watch it on the other set. See the difference?

Bottom line: If the set looks good to you, sit back and enjoy it. If you spend your time worrying about something better out there, you will be replacing equipment every month. If it is noticable in regular viewing, then by all means go ahead and spend the extra money and get the set that works for you.

 

[diogen]

People tend to get excited easily over the small stuff.

And that is the curse of the audio/video hobby: the more you know the less you enjoy it...

Diogen.

 

[gadgtfreek]

As someone who recently went from a juddering plasma to a nice 240HZ set. I'll take smoooooth any day.

 

[Stacy A]

Well, I've been watching for judder and haven't found any yet. Hopefully I won't notice it, because so far this TV's PQ is great. I love the set and don't think 60 Hz is going to be a problem. BD's look awesome, PS3 games are too. HD PQ on the 722 is pretty good (I think Dish is still compressing too much) and we are enjoying it.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Glad to hear it. It was tough for me to move from Plasma to LCD, and I was hesitant, but overall, Im happy with this set. First one in a while that Ive not felt some reason to need to upgrade.

3D sure is not a reason for me to upgrade...

 

[loves2watch]

As someone who recently went from a juddering plasma to a nice 240HZ set. I'll take smoooooth any day.

Sorry to hear you had that problem as I have never had any juddering issues with my Panasonic plasma TV's and they look better than any of my top of the line LCD displays without any issues.

 

[gadgtfreek]

What year/model?

 

[diogen]

Well, I've been watching for judder and haven't found any yet.

The best you can do is to stop looking for it...

I have never had any juddering issues with my Panasonic plasma...

Judder is not a perception issue, but physical reality...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#Telecine_judder

Diogen.

 

[mike123abc]

Judder can be eliminated by both Plasma and LCD if the set has the appropriate electronics. It is not a limitation of either technology.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I know, thats why I asked what year and model. He sounds like he's under the impression that I took a shot at Plasma, but it wasn't. Just my model in particular.

 

[diogen]

Judder can be eliminated by both Plasma and LCD if the set has the appropriate electronics.

Not on 60Hz sets.

Diogen.

 

[Tampa8]

On my LG the difference between 60HZ and 120 is more than just noticeable. Even scenes on a TV show when a people are moving quickly looks smooth at 120 choppy at 60. Even more of a difference for sports.
I also have 240HZ, I can not see a difference from 120 to 240.

Movies, using the Cinema setting and at 120HZ are stunning.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I agree. My plasma would accept 1080p/24, but it would perform the 2:3 pulldown is all, so i could let it do it, or the BR player. This 240hz set I have, with cinema mode, is night and day.

 

[Clancy]

Guys, this may be yet another dumb question from me, but I haven't had the time to plow through all the info on the web regarding this issue, so I was hoping someone here could get me back up to speed. I was a fairly early adopter of HDTV - getting my first HDTV in 2000. Back then I kept up with all the technology, but as things went on I fell out of the habit of doing that. Well, the other day my old Hitachi rear projection HDTV finally let go and we had to retire it. I was not prepared to replace a TV at the moment, not having had time to do research, pricing, etc..., so i ended up at Wal-Mart. I knew I wanted an LED LCD, I didn't care about 3D TV (waiting for the technology to stabilize), and I wanted a screen size of 50 inches (my Hitachi had been a 43 inch set). I was spending time looking for high contrast ratios and 120 Hz or more. I finally settled on a Samsung UN46C5000 LED LCD, a 46 inch TV - because there is no such thing as a 50 inch LCD and 55 inchers are just too big for the space I have. I got it home, got it set up, and then found out it was a 60 Hz tv. I was pissed. I could swear the description sign on the display TV at the store said 120 Hz. At first I wanted to take the TV back, but I've been watching it and the picture is very nice - HD movies look fantastic. So, if the 60Hz vs. 120 Hz thing isn't an issue then I'm keeping it. But, if my memory serves me right, the 120 Hz refresh rate is a requirement for true 1080p display. - In other words a 1080p 60Hz HDTV won't really show me true 1080p on my PS3. Is that true?

Thanks for any answers someone might be able to give.

The Samsung 120hz models are capable of 120hz but will indicate 60hz if that is the input source at the time.
Their 60 hz models are not capable of 120 reguardless of input.
Your model always has 120 hz. on and ready to go. Forget what the indicator says. Call Samsung for confirmation of what I said.

 

[diogen]

The very first batch of 120Hz TVs (first quarter of 2008, IIRC) was simply a 60Hz "interpolator" and wasn't capable of 5:5...

Diogen.