OTA channel guide problem

pattykay

pattykay

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Yes, if DISH wanted to they could change the software so it works with PSIP data for ota channels and you could select either DISH sat guide or PSIP.
That is the part that may be tricky to implement, as you would have to be able to set that selection individually for each channel. There may be some OTA channels where Dish-delivered guide data is better (goes out the full nine days) while on other channels (like the ones being discussed in this thread) PSIP would be better than either nothing or the wrong data. Such a selection would likely mean redesigning the entire OTA scanning menu, not to mention Help screens to explain to users what PSIP even is in the first place. On the Hopper interface, Dish does not even give us the option to save OTA channels in the guide that came in on a previous scan, but may not be coming in at the time of the current scan. So, I don't think Dish wants to add any other features that would "complicate" that OTA scan menu.

If it is not a choice for each individual OTA channel, but rather a single selection that applies to all OTA channels, then users would need to constantly flip-flop back and forth between the two settings, to get the most complete guide info possible. That would also increase the number of guide downloads needed, and the user wait time while the guide downloads. Dish may feel that all of that hassle would not be worth it.

Again, the $150 TV you get from Wal*Mart can decode the data stream. That TV manufacturer isn't paying anyone to display the data... it's included in the OTA signal. Dish wouldn't need to pay for it (at least not to the broadcasters). They would just need to write the code for it in their receivers. I'm assuming (and I think it's a safe assumption) the code shouldn't take much to write, as, as I said, it's found in every TV out there.
I still say it's a contractual thing. Dish uses it as a negotiation tactic. "We agree to give you [guide data provider] exclusive rights to program every channel in the Dish guide (and not use the cheaper PSIP guide data) if you agree to give us a lower rate on the guide data for the channels we are paying you for."
 
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sam_gordon

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I still say it's a contractual thing. Dish uses it as a negotiation tactic. "We agree to give you [guide data provider] exclusive rights to program every channel in the Dish guide (and not use the cheaper PSIP guide data) if you agree to give us a lower rate on the guide data for the channels we are paying you for."
Maybe. But Dish could code something like "if no Dish data, use PSIP". That would at least take care of subchannels that Dish doesn't carry. Yea, I know, Dish doesn't care about OTA (but then why include the tuner option).
 
pattykay

pattykay

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Maybe. But Dish could code something like "if no Dish data, use PSIP". That would at least take care of subchannels that Dish doesn't carry.
True, but then customers would probably keep calling technical support, "Why doesn't the guide go all the way out on these channels? I've refreshed the guide several times, and I still get No Information Available past xx:00 (AM/PM)." Dish may not want to deal with those phone calls, especially since there is nothing that technical support could do to fix it.
 
Peter Parker

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Ah yes, that was it. But I spell it "Goldvein". ;) I see that it has a Gold Mining Camp Museum which I will have to visit some time. Do you happen to know if it's still open?

And navychop is also living nearby. Several of us live in the general area.
You might be right on the spelling. Maybe that is where we should have the NOVA Satellite Guys party.
 
rvvaquero

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Again, the $150 TV you get from Wal*Mart can decode the data stream. That TV manufacturer isn't paying anyone to display the data... it's included in the OTA signal. Dish wouldn't need to pay for it (at least not to the broadcasters).
You may be right, but I don't think it's as simple a legal issue as you make it sound. The manufacturer of that TV is not selling me anything past the TV. DISH is selling me TV service with an interactive guide and interactive guide information to work with the DVR service which they are selling me. The providers always want their piece of the pie.
 
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pattykay

pattykay

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Don't give them any ideas! They already seem to have eliminated the white AirTV dongle for $30. :crying
Yeah, I noticed that the last time I wanted to buy one.

I think Dish's solution for OTA may be to simply provide separate AirTV devices with 4 OTA tuners that connect to the internet. Then, you use the Hopper+ to download an app for your Hopper, to be able to watch those OTA channels on your Hoppers and Joeys. The app would have the proper guide data for all of the OTA channels and subchannels. The only drawback would be not being able to record those OTA channels directly on the Hopper.
 
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sam_gordon

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You may be right, but I don't think it's as simple a legal issue as you make it sound. The manufacturer of that TV is not selling me anything past the TV. DISH is selling me TV service with an interactive guide and interactive guide information to work with the DVR service which they are selling me. The providers always want their piece of the pie.
But if you don't subscribe to Dish's satellite delivered locals (because you use the OTA signal), Dish doesn't pay the locals for you. They pay for those subscribers who get satellite delivered locals, not for those using OTA (and the associated guide data).
 
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MikeD-C05

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Yeah, I noticed that the last time I wanted to buy one.

I think Dish's solution for OTA may be to simply provide separate AirTV devices with 4 OTA tuners that connect to the internet. Then, you use the Hopper+ to download an app for your Hopper, to be able to watch those OTA channels on your Hoppers and Joeys. The app would have the proper guide data for all of the OTA channels and subchannels. The only drawback would be not being able to record those OTA channels directly on the Hopper.
That's why I suggested that Air Tv be used as the supplier of the hard drive for recording and it should be able to connect by usb to the Hopper. Then you would get both services integrated and your ota would have complete guide information for all your channels and sub channels.

But if all else fails you can also do what I suggested and get a stand alone Air tv Anywhere device with 4 ota tuners and it comes with a hard drive. So you could just tune into the Sling tv app and watch your ota channels and record them also. Of course DISH could also put the Sling tv as an app on the satellite receiver connected to your Air tv device and you could watch it through your receiver that way. This would help them promote both DISH and Sling tv. We already use Netflix , Prime Video and Youtube on the hopper , why not Sling tv? It might also attract more Sling tv subs instead of just churn . Either way they would still be a DISH video customer as both DISH and Sling tv are under the DISH name.
 
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MikeD-C05

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OF course if you get the Hopper plus device, if it ever is released to use, and add the sling tv app, since it will have a browser to add more apps anyway. Then you could drop sat locals but keep the better interface with better video output. Best part you get complete guide information for all ota channels and sub channels. This would accomplish what I suggested before .
 
pattykay

pattykay

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But if you don't subscribe to Dish's satellite delivered locals (because you use the OTA signal), Dish doesn't pay the locals for you. They pay for those subscribers who get satellite delivered locals, not for those using OTA (and the associated guide data).
I think that was rvvaquero's point: Dish is selling you the service (the guide data, which is included in your Dish subscription whether or not you pay for the locals) but the locals aren't getting paid any of that money. The locals may not like that, since it is their programming and their guide data. So, they want their cut of the money. Dish may not be willing to pay that.
 
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sam_gordon

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I think that was rvvaquero's point: Dish is selling you the service (the guide data, which is included in your Dish subscription whether or not you pay for the locals) but the locals aren't getting paid any of that money. The locals may not like that, since it is their programming and their guide data. So, they want their cut of the money. Dish may not be willing to pay that.
I don't subscribe to locals. Therefore I don't pay $12/month. However, I still get the guide data from Dish for the local stations... even subchannels that Dish doesn't carry (and presumably doesn't pay for). You still think Dish is paying the locals (money they're not getting from me) in order to display the guide data? I highly doubt that.
 
MikeD-C05

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I think that was rvvaquero's point: Dish is selling you the service (the guide data, which is included in your Dish subscription whether or not you pay for the locals) but the locals aren't getting paid any of that money. The locals may not like that, since it is their programming and their guide data. So, they want their cut of the money. Dish may not be willing to pay that.
DISH provides to all people who use the Sling tv app and who use their own Air tv device, FREE, and accurate ota guide information. So it won't cost DISH anymore than it would Sling tv, because cost would be Zero. They are both owned by DISH.
 
pattykay

pattykay

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DISH provides to all people who use the Sling tv app and who use their own Air tv device, FREE, and accurate ota guide information. So it won't cost DISH anymore than it would Sling tv, because cost would be Zero. They are both owned by DISH.
Yes, but Dish and Sling TV are structured differently with their offerings. For example, the free Vix TV channels that Dish recently added (as I was tracking in my Locals Only threads) are absolutely free through the Sling TV app, even without a Sling subscription. However, on Dish receivers, those same streaming channels require an active subscription. I get the Vix TV channels on my activated Wally, but not on my deactivated Hopper 3. So, some things that are free on Sling may still have some cost when it comes to using them for Dish.

So, as far as OTA guide information, it wouldn't surprise me if some cost for that was bundled into the price of a base Dish subscription. This would be similar to the $9 per month lease fee for the first receiver that gets bundled into everyone's subscription package, regardless of whether or not you are actually leasing any of your receivers. If Dish is charging customers anything for this guide data (even though it isn't itemized as a line item on the bill) then I wouldn't put it past the local broadcasters to ask for some kind of payment. I am not saying that Dish is actually paying them anything for it, merely that it is within the realm of possibility.

Yes, there are some freeloaders (such as myself whenever I cancel my Dish subscription) who get the OTA guide data for free without paying Dish for any subscription whatsoever. Dish can offset the cost for the few people who do that by simply charging everyone else who is still paying for a monthly subscription a little bit more each month. This can be partly what accounted for Dish's last price increase coming only 10 months after the previous one, instead of the usual 12-month wait between price increases.
 
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Scott Greczkowski

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The big thing between DISH and Sling and the OTA listings is DISH is limited to the amount records that can be transmitted using the DVB satellite standard.

If they go over (or my understanding) get close to going over the Dish receivers start doing strange things.

This is nothing that can be fixed with a software update. It’s built into the chipsets used by the Dish receivers.

Now sling on the other hand is not restricted by the limitation. It’s internet based and they can change things at anytime without being held back by Chipset and satellite standards limitations.

No one ever imagined Dish (or anyone) would be providing guide data for 20,000 stations (or whatever the number is).

If we had a lot more people with OTA tuners then they would probably make it so guide listings come to you over the internet, but there are so few people with OTA tuners that it’s not worth the investment to do that.

The android boxes do not touch the guide. It pulls that data from the Hopper but who’s to say in the future that if you want a better guide you can subscribe to Scheduled Direct on your own and use that for your Dish guide.

I know I would love to see that as an option.
 
pattykay

pattykay

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No one ever imagined Dish (or anyone) would be providing guide data for 20,000 stations (or whatever the number is).
10,440 Channels, as of the last available uplink:
"4/21/22 at 7:46am ET (v12) – 12 changes seen
...
10440 Channels"


I highly doubt Dish has added 10,000 more channels since then. Is 20,000 the upper limit that the standards will support?
If we had a lot more people with OTA tuners...
Well, if Dish had kept building OTA tuners into their receivers, we would have a lot more people with OTA tuners. So, most of the blame for that is on their (Dish's) end.
 
MikeD-C05

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Yes, but Dish and Sling TV are structured differently with their offerings. For example, the free Vix TV channels that Dish recently added (as I was tracking in my Locals Only threads) are absolutely free through the Sling TV app, even without a Sling subscription. However, on Dish receivers, those same streaming channels require an active subscription. I get the Vix TV channels on my activated Wally, but not on my deactivated Hopper 3. So, some things that are free on Sling may still have some cost when it comes to using them for Dish.

So, as far as OTA guide information, it wouldn't surprise me if some cost for that was bundled into the price of a base Dish subscription. This would be similar to the $9 per month lease fee for the first receiver that gets bundled into everyone's subscription package, regardless of whether or not you are actually leasing any of your receivers. If Dish is charging customers anything for this guide data (even though it isn't itemized as a line item on the bill) then I wouldn't put it past the local broadcasters to ask for some kind of payment. I am not saying that Dish is actually paying them anything for it, merely that it is within the realm of possibility.

Yes, there are some freeloaders (such as myself whenever I cancel my Dish subscription) who get the OTA guide data for free without paying Dish for any subscription whatsoever. Dish can offset the cost for the few people who do that by simply charging everyone else who is still paying for a monthly subscription a little bit more each month. This can be partly what accounted for Dish's last price increase coming only 10 months after the previous one, instead of the usual 12-month wait between price increases.
There is nothing stopping DISH from using Sling tv for an option for their service as well. They are already advertising their cell phone service for Republic Wireless, for all the people that have different cell phone services as well on channels 89-93. Why not use Sling tv and advertise that their is a cheaper option for people, who are cancelling their satellite service. DISH would then retain the video customer instead of lose one. And if it helps give satellite customers the option to use Sling tv to accompany their satellite service, for complete guide information and recording and they are willing to pay for an Air Tv ota device with a hard drive and an ota antenna, then those subs would stay with DISH as well. It's a win-win situation for DISH ,because they control it all. In the future when satellite is no longer profitable and the amount of subs drops down to 1 million or less ,this advertising Sling tv would be a way to direct all their subs to another DISH service like Sling tv and once again they would keep them as DISH subs.
 
pattykay

pattykay

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Why not use Sling tv and advertise that their is a cheaper option for people, who are cancelling their satellite service.
Hey, if Sling TV had a cheaper version of the Locals Only package, I'd definitely switch. As it is, Sling TV doesn't offer local channels at all. I can't pick up all of the networks in my market OTA, so that is not a viable option for me, either. For the channels that do come in OTA, though, I still want reliable and complete guide information in the Dish guide.
 
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