Showtime HD & HBO HD - 110 - 148 and more Bitrates, Errors and More

H

HDTVFanAtic

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May 23, 2005
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Showtime HD & HBO HD - 110 - 148 Bitrates, Errors and More

Over the past several days I had an unusual opportunity to be in a position where we had a several modified 6000s in the same location that could pick up 110 and 148. This allowed capture of the same exact showing of HBO-HD and SHO-HD off 148 and 110 at the same time for the first (that I am aware of) apples to apples comparison of the two.

As anyone who has viewed these threads should know, the bit-rates of the same movie at different times on Dish can be different - thus even though you compare the same movie, it still can yield different results.

House Arrest on HBO-HD from start to finish:

11.09 Mbps Video on 110
11.87 Mbps Video on 148

Not a surprise as that is around where the 2 average.

Teaching Mrs. Tingle on SHO-HD from start to finish:

8.49 Mbps Video on 110
12.83 Mbps Video on 148

Again, confirming what I basically knew - but in dramatic fashion.

HERE IS THE SHOCKER......

We know that Showtime has problems on Dish and usually it will cause a mux issue resulting in an error and a glitch - time gap - even using a 942. On the 6000 it often results in an audio/video desynch on the composite outputs of the unit.

What I (and I suspect) no one knew up until yesterday, was the glitch occurs ON BOTH SATELLITES AT THE SAME TIME. I have a glitch on Teaching Mrs. Tingle AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME ON BOTH BIRDS and the logs from Mpeg2repair are virtually identical with the errors.

As I do not know the flow chart of the downlink and up-link at Dish, its hard to make a firm conclusion, but I can speculate with somewhat certainty now that this is not happening at the dish up-link as its happening at the same time on 110 and 148.

Given the large bitrate difference in 110 and 148, I have to assume these are on different paths at Dish. It apprears to be happening more in their downlink and plant distribution of the source material.

Thus, could Dish have a problem in their Showtime Downlink Motorola/GI 4400MD that is the root of these glitches we have come to know and love? This would explain why its at the same place on both birds - even if being feed to different encoders for 110 and 148?
 
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Gary Murrell

Gary Murrell

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 16, 2005
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Prestonsburg, KY
Thanks for the info, much appreciated, Tingle was a upconvert sadly though

I have pretty much given up on Dish and HBO/Showtime, they are a joke with Showtime for many reasons

one is that Showtime looks horrid on 110 because of it's bottom of the barrel bitrate, mpeg artifacts galore :(, 148 Showtime looks much better and the info we have found between 110 and 148 show's this

sadly both 110 and 148 Showtime are useless, because of the errors and big ones at that, like you said the 942 chokes on Showtime

I will be recording HBO/Showtime/StarZ from 4DTV soon because of these reasons along with what I consider Dish's horrid treatment of me and other HD sub's, I am tired of Dish and being sh*t on, sorry for this rant in my post :(

-Gary
 
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H

HokieEngineer

Proud Staff Member
Oct 13, 2003
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Thanks HDTVfan for doing more engineering/troubleshooting in a night than Dish Engineers seem to accomplish in a year :).


Yea yea, I know they have thousands of channels to monitor, but you'd think they'd have a HD team that focuses on the HD channels and could spot this type of problem and FIX IT.
 
H

HDTVFanAtic

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May 23, 2005
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Here's an idea....Paul seem to be open to emails at Showtime. If we were able to give him this info, I would think he would use the back channels to determine where the issue is.

Unless they only have 1 encoder and somehow shave the rates off for 110, I can't see how this could happen on both feeds - but again, I don't know their distribution system.

And don't Dish Engineers monitor satelliteguys.us?

Scott?????

Gary - I had to use Mrs. Tingle because I originally used 2 Showtime movies and of course, wouldn't you know they were the ones that DIDN'T HAVE ERRORS IN THEM, LOL.

Also tried Ghostbusters for test today, but as you are aware, that one did not burp.

For your reference, the late afternoon showing of Ghostbusters:

110 - 9.46 Mbps
148 - 12.62 Mbps

As this was the OAR 2.35:1 version, figure that the actual bitrate is roughly 33% higher due to 25% of the screen being back - or right up near HDNET's 17Mbps CBR when using 148.
 
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H

HDTVFanAtic

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May 23, 2005
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110
MPEG2Repair: D:\Teaching Mrs. Tingle 110_01.ts


Sequence Frame 25808(512-P) / Time 0:17:49 :
VideoError: Slice 59 followed by invalid slice 1. (Should differ by one row)
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420228
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420229
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420229
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420230
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420231
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420231
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420231
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420231
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420232
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420232
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420233
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420233
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420234
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420234
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420234
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420234
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420235
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420235
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420236
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420237
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420237
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420237
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420237
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420238
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420238
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420239
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420239
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420240
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420240
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420240
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420240
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420241
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420241
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420242
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420243
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420243
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420243
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420243
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420244
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420244
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420245
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420245
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420246
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420246
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420246
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420246
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420247
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420247
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420248
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420249
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420249
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420249
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420249
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420250
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420250
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420251
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420251
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 6420252
Warning: PCR interval greater than 2.401107 seconds (prev=1109040343015,current=1109105172894)
VideoError: Invalid Huffman code in non-intra MPEG2 block. MBA=6968(128,928)
VideoError: Failed to decode macroblock at MBA=6968(128,928)
VideoError: Missing 1193 macroblocks in picture slice(s) at MBA=6967(112,928).
FileInfo: Last video errors span 170621 bytes at file offset 1207637486

Sequence Frame 25844(35-B) / Time 0:17:53 :
AudioError: Corrupted AC3 frame of 3068 payload bytes at file offset 1207747762
AudioWarning: Timestamp gap of 3.872000 sec. ending at file offset 1207747762

Sequence Frame 25847(37-B) / Time 0:17:53 :
VideoWarning: TemporalRef gap of 1. Timestamp gap of 0.050044 sec. ending at file offset 1207582775
VideoWarning: TemporalRef gap of 512. Timestamp gap of 2.469133 sec. ending at file offset 1207918538

Sequence Frame 137007(605-B) / Time 1:35:05 :

Info: End of sequence: 1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (with telecine flags), 18.00 Mbps.
Info: Found 137007 video frames since start of sequence.
Info: 1 video frames found with errors.
Info: 1 audio frames found with errors.
Info: 170621 corrupted video bytes in file.
Info: 2.519178 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
Info: 3.872000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log
 
H

HDTVFanAtic

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
May 23, 2005
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148
MPEG2Repair: D:\MPEG2REPAIR\Teaching Mrs. Tingle 148_01.ts


Sequence Frame 25808(512-P) / Time 0:17:49 :
VideoError: Slice 67 followed by invalid slice 6. (Should differ by one row)
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255109
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255120
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255131
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255142
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255153
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255164
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255174
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255186
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255196
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255206
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255210
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255211
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255211
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255211
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255211
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255212
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255212
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255213
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255213
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255214
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255214
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255214
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255215
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255215
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255215
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255216
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255217
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255217
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255217
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255217
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255218
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255218
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255219
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255219
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255220
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255220
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255220
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255221
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255221
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255221
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255222
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255223
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255223
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255223
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255223
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255224
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255224
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255225
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255225
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255226
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255226
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255226
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255227
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255227
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255227
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255228
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255229
VideoWarning: Repeated adaptation/non-payload packet number 10255229
VideoError: Invalid Huffman code in non-intra MPEG2 block. MBA=8017(1552,1056)
VideoError: Failed to decode macroblock at MBA=8017(1552,1056)
VideoError: Missing 144 macroblocks in picture slice(s) at MBA=8016(1536,1056).
FileInfo: Last video errors span 38510 bytes at file offset 1928914949

Sequence Frame 25809(2-P) / Time 0:17:52 :
Warning: PCR interval greater than 2.401184 seconds (prev=1261187370096,current=1261252202069)

Sequence Frame 25837(30-P) / Time 0:17:53 :
AudioError: Corrupted AC3 frame of 2974 payload bytes at file offset 1928976174
AudioWarning: Timestamp gap of 3.183333 sec. ending at file offset 1928976174

Sequence Frame 25847(37-B) / Time 0:17:53 :
VideoWarning: TemporalRef gap of 1. Timestamp gap of 0.050044 sec. ending at file offset 1928847031
VideoWarning: TemporalRef gap of 512. Timestamp gap of 2.452456 sec. ending at file offset 1929078830

Sequence Frame 137007(605-B) / Time 1:35:05 :

Info: End of sequence: 1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (with telecine flags), 18.00 Mbps.
Info: Found 137007 video frames since start of sequence.
Info: 1 video frames found with errors.
Info: 1 audio frames found with errors.
Info: 38510 corrupted video bytes in file.
Info: 2.502500 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
Info: 3.183333 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log
 
H

HDTVFanAtic

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
May 23, 2005
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Both times were from the first GOP of the ratings.
 
Gary Murrell

Gary Murrell

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 16, 2005
465
0
Prestonsburg, KY
no doubt about it, showtime on 148 is much better :)

thats a great idea, we need to email Paul ;)

those errors on both sats at the same time are very fishy, I think that would mean that there is a problem in their reception of Showtime, assuming that their same single reception point of Showtime is used to feed both 148 and 110

I am pissed because I missed the last airing of the OAR Last Action Hero, because it was glitch city :mad:, in the words of Heston "Damn you, Dish"

-Gary
 
S

Sarang

SatelliteGuys Pro
Sep 30, 2005
315
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Not to be a dick but I'd like to see HBO and Showtime coming in NEAR what they both put out in terms of feed to see how the series and movies really look because frankly I'm not very impressed with either. I mean whoever does C-Band tell me what kind of bitrate both of these put out because I'm curious.
 
Gary Murrell

Gary Murrell

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 16, 2005
465
0
Prestonsburg, KY
Sarang said:
Not to be a dick but I'd like to see HBO and Showtime coming in NEAR what they both put out in terms of feed to see how the series and movies really look because frankly I'm not very impressed with either. I mean whoever does C-Band tell me what kind of bitrate both of these put out because I'm curious.

I will be able to do that ASAP ;) Showtime/HBO are variable bitrate from source, they peak at 14.2 Mbps and would average around 12 Mbps I would guess

-Gary
 
S

Sarang

SatelliteGuys Pro
Sep 30, 2005
315
0
Wow so what Dish is putting out on 148 is pretty much what both put out in original feed. Have to say I'm a bit disappointed then, serieswise and moviewise. Hopefully Starz HD will look a LOT better. I would like some of these to be putting out near 16 Mbps based upon the comment I heard about how one person though the HD PPV on 148 looked HD-DVD quality and such.
 
H

HDTVFanAtic

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
May 23, 2005
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You won't be seeing 12Mbps on HBO. It averages 11Mbps or less when read with tsreader.
 
Gary Murrell

Gary Murrell

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 16, 2005
465
0
Prestonsburg, KY
I think Starz is around 14 Mbps max also, HBO is said to average around 12.5 Mbps per movie, the 2.35:1 are around a average of 11 Mbps due to black bars

-Gary
 
Tom Bombadil

Tom Bombadil

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
May 5, 2005
3,601
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Chicago-Milwaukee Region
Tonight "Gods and Monsters" aired on Showtime. The picture from SHO HD was almost identical to that from SHO SD on 318. The SHO HD video looked like a very poor 4:3 upconvert. I set up a PIP using 318 and 9460 and swapped back and forth. The 9460 picture was a bit sharper, both had poor contrast and mediocre colors.

It's still on right now, for the next hour, if anyone wants to check it out.
 
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H

HDTVFanAtic

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
May 23, 2005
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Hmmmm.......it might look similar because its not in HD - not even an unpconvert?

Neither the Showtime Website, Zap2it nor titan list it as HD??????

I have not seen anything claming it was in HD.
 
H

HDTVFanAtic

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
May 23, 2005
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Gary Murrell said:
I think Starz is around 14 Mbps max also, HBO is said to average around 12.5 Mbps per movie, the 2.35:1 are around a average of 11 Mbps due to black bars

-Gary

The C Band users that I have mpeg2repair logs from have all given 10.5Mbps video bitrates with TSReader as the average.

YMMV
 
Tom Bombadil

Tom Bombadil

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
May 5, 2005
3,601
1
Chicago-Milwaukee Region
Perhaps it is just SD with a higher bitrate / less compression.

I can't recall seeing a SD movie on HBO or SHO HD before.
 
Gary Murrell

Gary Murrell

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 16, 2005
465
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Prestonsburg, KY
Hey thats fine with me, no errors or recompression from Cband on HBO, better Showtime and Starz is what I am after from 4DTV mostly

Yes Gods was not even a upconvert, Showtime was just passing thru their 4:3 SD feed upconverted to 1080i

-Gary
 

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