antenna advice

axpilot

New Member
Original poster
Feb 10, 2009
4
0
hattiesburg, ms
I live in 39465. antennaweb has my stations almost 180 degrees from each other. Well, actually they don't list all the stations I am receiving now. I have two aprox 15 miles to my north west, and two aprox 50 miles to my souteast. I currently have a lowes antenna on a 30' tower. It is a uhf/vhf antenna. All of my stations are uhf, and these are the antennas that winegard recomends- HD8800, HD-9032, HD9095P. I don't want to use a rotor, I am currently receiving all stations fine except the closest one. I want to get a new antenna, but need to know which of those will have the best reception off of the back side. I hope I have given all of the info you need, just ask if I left something out.

Jake
 
For future reference, Antennaweb sucks. Try TVFool.com for a much better representation.

I'd go with the Winegard 8800 pointing at ch51's transmitter (rf48). That's where I'd start anyway. Other similar antennas are the Channel Master 4228 and Antennas Direct/Terrestrial Digital dB8. If wind load is more of a concern than price, there's allso the AD/TD ClearStream-4 quad-hoop antenna, which has similar performance at a much smaller size.

I'd also pick up an Eagle Aspen DTV2B-UHF or a Winegard HD1080 and put it on the back side of the same mast to ensure that you have signals from the Northwestern stations. The big, flat gain figures that bowtie antennas (and ClearStreams) are known for are in part due to that big, flat reflector on the back, which also blocks back-side signal. The Eagle Aspen antenna is $13 at Summit Source, and worth every penny. A ClearStream single-hoop antenna can also be found for about $50 online, if you want a smaller/prettier antenna.

What kind of problems are you having with WHLT (CBS, rf22)?
 
I am not worried about wind load or size of antenna, it is the only thing on a rohn 25 tower. what would you use to combine the two antenna's? WHLT digitizes on me if there is any weather in the area, not a problem on clear days, but we don't get many clear days in south Ms. Also, I have read bad things about Summit Source, where else would you buy the antennas?

Jake
 
I'd use a Winegard CC-7870, about $12.50 at Summit Source or Solid Signal. An even better option would be a Winegard AP 4800 preamp, which amplifies UHF but not a VHF/Combined signal; you'd run the bigger antenna into the UHF-only side and run the smaller antenna into the bypass port, so the smaller ant wouldn't get amplified at all (because you don't need it). I think someone will chime in and correct the part number if I got that wrong.

I think that a real antenna, pointed directly at the WHLT tower, should take care of you unless you're dealing with noise or atmospheric multipath. You don't have any ravines or swamps between you and that tower, do you? Probably aught to pick up a bag of F-connector grommets while you're at it, and a couple of 1' to 3' lengths of factory-made preterminated RG6, unless you're handy yourself with compression fittings. I've placed half a dozen of orders with Summit Source in the last nine months, and other than one order that their tracking system didn't email me about, but was shipped anyway, I've had no trouble. You can buy the DTV2B-UHF from a number of other places, but the price quickly ramps up to $30 before shipping.

On a tower like that, you may be able to get away with a 4-bay primary antenna instead of an 8-bay (especially with a preamp), but you're probably safer with the 8800/db8 anyway. I forgot to mention that there's an Antennacraft 8-bay that you may like, the U8000. The U8000 (and the U4000 4-bay) uses aluminum rods instead of a square mesh for a reflector. May be a few bones cheaper than the 8800, too. Your call.
 
I live in 39465. antennaweb has my stations almost 180 degrees from each other.

Jake

Others in your situation have had luck with a 4221 with the screen reflector removed.

This assumes that your tvfool report is similar to this: TV Fool

If not, please post your exact report.
 
Tower guy, yes that is my map. I don't want to say that money is no object, but I just want it to work all the time. I think that it is rediculas that I am less that 20 miles or so from the tower and it isn't always clear. I am really trying to not use a rotor, because my a/v system is complicated enough I may be divorced if i make it any worse.

So if i but the two antennas, how far apart do I need to mount them? Do you think this is my best bet at getting it to work?
 
Thumb rule is 3' of vertical separation, but you should be able to put them back-to-back at 180* apart. If you really want to dial in both antennas (which means not 180* off), then you may need the 3' between them. I'd put the bigger antenna on top.
 
A 4-bay shooting for 40-60 miles with no reflector at all?

Yes. WRBJ shows a noise margin of 19 db. A 4 bay antenna with the screen removed would have a gain of about 4-5 db, yielding a net noise margin of 23-24 db. That will work for 1-2 TVs with a short lead-in.

For more than 2 TVs or a longer feedline I'd add an HDP-269 amplifier.
 
The answer is - there is no real answer.

UHF reception depends on a line of sight transmission.

Line of sight transmission VHF vs. UHF is a sound vs. light comparison.

If you shine a light (signal) UHF, it cannot or will not go up one hill and down the next.

It will not shine though a cement building and it has a real hard time shining through a tree with leaves on it or through the side of a hill or a mountain.

Pine needles is even more difficult then a tree with leaves, because a pine tree does not loose all it's needles all at one time.

And basically if you shine a flashlight up into the sky, it will not shine down into a hole (valley).

Because the signal - (UHF) is line of sight, sooner or later it will stop bouncing off the atmosphere and travels out into space. Once you loose the signal - it will not be receivable

The basic way a television station broadcasts a UHF signals is by lowering their antenna to a height of say 500 feet above average terrain on the highest point on a hill above the market they wish to be received in. The lowering of the antenna allows the broadcaster to use more power, due to the fact that with a height increase you have something called height gain - which when factored in - reduces the amount of power that they are allowed to transmit with and the other thing is that when you raise a UHF transmitter stick too high, it skips over the most local people in the market and shines where you do not want it to go. There are places where the people can see the light blinking on the tower and cannot receive the signal. With digital UHF - you are not allowed to broadcast out of your Service Map area into another broadcasters market.

The normal line of sight is somewhere around 48 miles - due to the fact that the curvature of the earth is such that if you built a tower 1000 ft. tall and you built a identical tower 48 miles away and there was nothing between the two towers - such as on the shore of lake Erie, you could see the light blinking on top of the other tower 48 miles away if you was standing on the top of the other tower, even though the normal horizon might only be 28 miles, due to a phenomena called refraction - where the light actually bends around the curvature of the earth.

VHF differs from UHF in the fact that VHF - (sound) WILL go up one hill and down the next, will go around the corner of a building or even through a building. VHF is ground following.

You seem to have some experience with VHF - due to the fact that most television was VHF for the past 60 or so years. You do not seem to grasp the concept of UHF reception.

So the answer is - if you use a 4 bay antenna in a urban location and you remove the screen - which removes the directionality and removes 3 db of gain, you will create more issues then you will solve.

3 db of gain being about half of the signal, you will end up with multipath issues.

Your other advisers has already admitted that there will be a significant amount of noise when you remove the reflector ( screen). Once you hit the signal noise floor, no amount of amplification will help your cause.

There is no real answer due to the fact that multipath will do more harm to your signal than it will do good.

The digital signal that travels through the atmosphere is pretty much the same type of signal as the signals inside of your computer.

It is all 1's and 0's.

When ever something comes along and corrupts your signal. Even if you have a good signal, the corruption will make it unwatchable. Even local UHF radio transmissions such as police and ambulance can affect your reception.

Add to that the fact that the Coax you use might loose 1/2 to 3/4's of the signal between the antenna and the house, makes it most difficult to predict what might happen when you use two antenna's and point them in different directions.

The proper way of receiving a signal is to look directly at the signal.

The only way to look at two different markets is to use a digital antenna rotor and turn your antenna when ever you wish to get better reception.

Depending on how strong the signals are, you might be able to get away with one really good antenna that is not as directional. The theory being that a YAGI antenna can receive signals from the back side - something called the Front To Back Ratio. In electronic's - there is no such thing as Front To Back Ratio - because no one that is educated would ever think of trying to receive a signal off the back side of the antenna.

But the theory does work and the best antenna to do that in a world where all you have is UHF signals is to use a Winegard Model HD9095P

Without a exact address there is no way to accurately predict even with TV fool what you situation might be. Realizing that any building 3 or more stories high or a hill or a tree that is higher then your antenna and between you and the transmitter can and might prevent good reception.

Here is a radar plot for your zip code. TV Fool

You actually have signals 280* around your location, so no two antenna set up would even work for your situation.

Because most all of your receivable signals are UHF - you do not need a UHF / VHF pre Amplifier. Channel Master CM 7775 pre amplifier - mounted as close to the antenna as possible. This set up will net you the maximum amount of channels - without any interference from VHF signals.

Any signal with a -db of more than -100 will be unwatchable most of the year anyways, So worrying about stations such as WTOK wouldn't be worth your time to try to get.

Use a good communications grade Quad Shield Wire with the proper connectors and make sure to weatherproof all connections. Belden Series 3 1829 AC wire is a very good wire to use.

My advice would also be to use a RCA Digitally remote controlled Antenna Rotor such as the one sold at Lowes for a price of about $69.00

Since it is programmable, all your wife will have to do is look at a chart you can make for which button to push for which channel and it will return to that particular location every time you push the button, which would simplify the situation of someone no bright enough to know where to position the rotor to receive a station or be able to use the antenna point signal strength meter.

Welcome to 1949!
 
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