Improving daytime reception?

[CubsWin]

Its amazing what you'll pick up when you use the right antenna

The unfortunate part of the whole thing is that my original antenna was professionally installed and I made it clear at the time that I hoped to get WBBM. The installer told me the only way I would be able to get it would be to put the antenna on my roof, which I didn't want to do, so I decided just to live without WBBM for awhile. I just assumed that he would have chosen the best possible antenna for my situation, but now I realize that wasn't the case and I spent way more money than I needed to.

 

[Mr Tony]

The unfortunate part of the whole thing is that my original antenna was professionally installed and I made it clear at the time that I hoped to get WBBM. The installer told me the only way I would be able to get it would be to put the antenna on my roof, which I didn't want to do, so I decided just to live without WBBM for awhile. .

Discourages me when "professionals" say things like that.
My CBS is 56 miles away (KCCW Walker, MN...owned and operated by CBS just like WBBM) and I use a VHF only antenna like the one you have and it works great. (top one is UHF)
If you like older programs (or history in general) you'll like Decades. I record "Through the Decades" daily. Its a time capsule of the day in history

 

[CubsWin]

I received the UVSJ combiner today and connected everything. All channels are working on my Dish Hopper with signal strengths anywhere between 75-100. The only thing I did notice was that I think I have some multi-path interference, possibly due to the 2 antennas being close together? I see the signal readings on some channels constantly bouncing back and forth between 80 and 100. It doesn't appear to be causing any problems with the Hopper reception, but I decided to go one step further and connect a cable directly to the antenna input of my 10 year old Hitachi rear projection TV. The tuner on that TV appears to be more sensitive, as there are a few channels that are getting very low signal readings and have reception issues even though they look just fine on the Hopper. Any ideas for what I should try?

 

[Mr Tony]

I received the UVSJ combiner today and connected everything. All channels are working on my Dish Hopper with signal strengths anywhere between 75-100. The only thing I did notice was that I think I have some multi-path interference, possibly due to the 2 antennas being close together?

How close are they to each other? As long as its 2 or 3 feet away you should be fine.

I see the signal readings on some channels constantly bouncing back and forth between 80 and 100. It doesn't appear to be causing any problems with the Hopper reception, but I decided to go one step further and connect a cable directly to the antenna input of my 10 year old Hitachi rear projection TV. The tuner on that TV appears to be more sensitive, as there are a few channels that are getting very low signal readings and have reception issues even though they look just fine on the Hopper. Any ideas for what I should try?

From experience using a few dish products (DTVPal, DTVPal DVR, 211k and 811) the meter on those are real squirrely. When I lived in Duluth and only 2 miles from the towers the DTVPal still bounced between 80-99 (I dont remember getting 100 on it). As long as it doesnt pixelate I wouldnt worry about it.
Each tuner has different meters. My 32" AOC TV will show a stable picture at 32-33 on the meter whereas Dish products require a 60 or higher

 

[CubsWin]

How close are they to each other? As long as its 2 or 3 feet away you should be fine.

Closer than that. I was working in somewhat tight quarters in my attic. There is probably only a foot between some of the elements on the two antennas.

 

[Mr Tony]

because they are of different bands you should be OK. I know of folks who have the antennas right on top of each other.
When I lived in my apartment the antennas were about a foot away and it worked fine

 

[CubsWin]

because they are of different bands you should be OK.

I just find it odd that one TV is unable to even get a lock on a channel that the Hopper has no problem with, and looking at the TV Fool report I don't see any reason why there would be a problem with that channel.

For example, 50-1. This is one of the channels that is bouncing between 80-100 on the Hopper, but there are no problems with the picture. When I try to tune it on my old Hitachi TV tuner, I'm getting a signal reading of less than 10 and it can't lock the channel.

What would cause something like that?

 

[Mr Tony]

Did you try a rescan on the TV?

Some TV's will allow direct entry of the RF station. Try and enter 51-3 (which is the RF station that 50-1 maps from) and see what happens

 

[CubsWin]

No impact on the re-scan. It does pick up 50-1, but just gives me a black screen with weak signal. 51-3 just redirects to the next closest channel, which is 50-4.

I didn't want to mess with the antennas anymore, but I think I'm going to take the new one down temporarily to see what happens.

 

[CubsWin]

Ok, so without moving the antenna, I simply unplugged the VHF antenna from the "LO" input of the combiner and the signal immediately stabilized. No more bouncing back and forth, but of course now I also lose WBBM. I guess the next thing to try is to combine a non-amplified VHF signal from the new antenna instead of running both antennas through the amplifier.


Update: Bypassing the pre-amp and combining antennas after it didn't work, because the WBBM signal is much too weak. It definitely needs to be amplified.

I'm still not quite sure I understand what is happening here. Shouldn't the Blonder Tongue UHF/VHF combiner be filtering the signals to prevent this type of interference? Or is there some other strange interaction with the pre-amp that is causing problems with the combined signal? I have the outputs from each antenna running into the UHF/VHF combiner, then the output from the combiner going to the mast-mounted pre-amp, which then runs down to my distribution point in the basement. In the basement, the coax cable connects to a grounding block, then to the power inserter for the pre-amp, then is distributed to my tuners.

I have 3 ideas and I'm not sure which of these is most likely to solve my new problem.

1) Try a different combiner - Possibly the Stellar Labs 33-2230 will work differently?
2) Use an attenuator on the VHF antenna output prior to combining it with my Digitenna. I question whether this would be appropriate since the WBBM signal already needs amplification.
3) Use a separate amplifier for the VHF antenna, then combine the signals AFTER each one has been amplified. This would be the least desirable solution because it would require purchasing another pre-amp and using my last basement-to-attic coax cable.

Any thoughts?

 

[primestar31]

You are maybe chasing ghosts. The issue could be multipath, and the only cure is to try moving your antennas, or repoint them, or maybe just learn to live with it. Attic antennas only get 1/2 the signal of a roof installation at best. Then, if you are splitting it between receivers, you are dropping the signal even more.

However:

FIRST suggestion I have: get an fm trap, and install it right after the antenna, and before the combiner. You might have very strong fm stations, and that'll cause this issue, especially with an installed amp. Radio Shack still sells one, or you can get the one from MCM Electronics. I have TWO fm traps in my system. Even in the boonies, I have an fm station the exact opposite direction of my antenna system, and it's only 6 miles away and much stronger than the tv signals.

SECOND suggestion: look around for something that's causing electrical interference. Such as laptop power bricks (I had a bad Dell one that caused my signal to go up and down), battery charger/tenders (I found that I had a Harbor Freight one that could be heard on am radio 300ft away!), etc. Easiest way might be to start flipping off circuit breakers in your house, and hopefully if it is electrical and in your house, you'll get the breaker and it won't be the one your tv set and amp is on.

 

[Mr Tony]

3) Use a separate amplifier for the VHF antenna, then combine the signals AFTER each one has been amplified. This would be the least desirable solution because it would require purchasing another pre-amp and using my last basement-to-attic coax cable.

Any thoughts?

dumb question but is there a power outlet in the attic? If so then you wouldnt need to use 2 lines to the basement

 

[CubsWin]

dumb question but is there a power outlet in the attic?

There isn't.

 

[Mr Tony]

bummer....

What I cant figure out when looking at the antenna online is this.
Is the pre-amp built into the output on the antenna? Or is it a 2 piece unit that doesnt have to be used if you dont want it to?

edit: I am thoroughly confused. Looks like there is 2 models of this antenna. One without an amp and one with a Embedded Amp with Extra Input which allows you to add another one of their antennas.

Can you clarify what amp you have? The one built in or an aftermarket (ie: not embedded) amp?

 

[CubsWin]

Can you clarify what amp you have? The one built in or an aftermarket (ie: not embedded) amp?

It is aftermarket (but also from Digitenna) and mast-mounted, with only 1 antenna input. I think the next thing I'm going to try is an FM trap on the VHF antenna output, and if that fails then maybe try a different pre-amp (Winegard LNA-200 perhaps?).

 

[Mr Tony]

It is aftermarket (but also from Digitenna) and mast-mounted, with only 1 antenna input. I think the next thing I'm going to try is an FM trap on the VHF antenna output, and if that fails then maybe try a different pre-amp (Winegard LNA-200 perhaps?).

OK. I was worried it was the one with the embedded amp

This is the one I use on one of my setups
http://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/rca-antenna-pre-amplifier/0000000069088

I got mine at Fleet Farm (They're in MN, ND, WI and Iowa) but can be had at Menards, Solid Signal, Wal-Mart, amazon etc. It has separate VHF & UHF connections so you don't need the joiner (it has a switch that you can slide to use a combo antenna or separate VHF/UHF inputs) and it works real well.

 

[CubsWin]

OK. I was worried it was the one with the embedded amp

This is the one I use on one of my setups
http://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/rca-antenna-pre-amplifier/0000000069088

Awesome, thank you! I actually have a Farm & Fleet store a few miles from my house and I just checked their website to find that they have 2 of these in stock. I 1-day shipped an FM trap from Amazon, so I'll try that first tomorrow and if it doesn't work then I'll make a trip to Farm & Fleet in the afternoon.

Thank you for all your help.

 

[Mr Tony]

By the way that amp has a FM trap too.

 

[primestar31]

Don't trust JUST the fm trap built into a preamp! Turn it on, but

By the way that amp has a FM trap too.

If you buy that preamp, do NOT just use the built-in fm trap, as it's probably not going to be enough. Turn that on, AND use the external fm trap off the vhf antenna, and before the preamp.

So, you will have TWO fm traps in series. My favorite fm traps are the MCM Electronics models.

Any chance you can post an FM Fool report here? That way we can see for sure if you need it, but many people do, so it's pretty much a sure bet you do also. http://fmfool.com/

Remember what I said at my other post above, fm signals are normally MUCH stronger than local tv signals, and can easily overpower a preamp. I had that problem until adding two filters.

 

[CubsWin]

The FM Fool report is below.

I received the MCM FM Trap this morning and it has stabilized some of the signal readings, but not others.

For example, 7-1 bounces between 80-100 without the trap, but maintains a solid 100 with it. 50-1 on the other hand, doesn't change at all with the trap and continues to bounce back and forth and cause pixelation on my Hitachi TV tuner.

It seems to me that the trap has helped, but maybe it wasn't enough and I need to add a 2nd one.