Million Dollar Question: How is HD-DVD a better format for the end user?

[JoeSp]

I keep reading HD-DVD supporters state that HD-DVD is a better format. My question is how. Lets try and see if we can keep this in perspective.

Here is what I want to know:

First: Picture Quality, Sound Quality for the movie. Tell me how HD-DVD is a better format then BD for viewing the movie only.

Second: Bonus Features available on the disc after you watch the movie -- as in does HD-DVD allow you more bonus features then BD? (Not how you get to them or view them, I address that in the next question)

Third: Menu -- does HD-DVD offer something you don't get with BD? How does this make watching a movie a better experiance during the viewing of the movie. How does this improve the viewing of Bonus features?

Finally Choice -- does HD-DVD offer you more choice then BD?

Here is what I do not care about:

Price to press a disc -- unless that savings is passed on to the consumer it does not matter. No consumer cares about how much it cost to make a movie or put it on a disc -- they only care about how much they have to pay.

Price of the player -- I don't know what is in your wallet and you don't know what is in mine. First time a salesman tries to guess what is in my wallet he has lost the sale. Anyway, all technology comes down in price the longer it is on the shelf. Chistmas numbers have proven that lower price does not always mean more sells.

Price of the media at a particular retailer either B&M or online -- everyone selling gets to set the price they want to sell at -- go to Walmart and it will be cheaper then BestBuy and sometimes cheaper then Amazon.com.

The trend here is I don't care about price because that obviously has not helped Toshiba and the HD-DVD group. I want to know when you are setting in front of your HD setup why you think HD-DVD is better then BD. And for the BD owners, try and answer these questions as though they are asked about BD.

 

[teamerickson]

Really, I think the only advantage HD DVD has is it is finalized.

 

[r.jones1116]

Really, I think the only advantage HD DVD has is it is finalized.

And hardware is less expensive, set up costs for disc manufacturing is cheaper. in a nut shell, More Bang for the Buck

 

[jokeworm]

You may not want to know about price - but at the end of the day - that is what 95% of end users will look at before making the decision to buy or not. "Features" and "extras" and everything else are nice to have .. but they are not the main reason why most people would buy one player over another. For me - both formats are pretty much the same ... they do the same thing .. they make movies you watch look good on your big screen tv ... of course you can get all technical and geeky and break it down to transistors and electrodes ... but the vast majority of people out there that are going to buy these players don't give a fig about anything other than put a HD movie into the slot and watching it on a screen.

For me - HD-DVD is more consumer friendly. Simple as that.

They have a good product at a decent price and they have been willing to give the end user what they think the end user wants in order to "win" out over BR.

BR on the other hand has maintained high prices, has Sony behind it - who are probably the last people i would want to buy any consumer product from given their history of screwing the consumer with DRM issues and "closed" formats. They are also more interested in giving the studio's what THEY want in order to win the "war" rather than giving the consumer what they want.

I will have both players by this time next week - however I'm rooting for HD-DVD to pull off a HUGE surprise win .. as in my opinion this is the only way that the HD format will take off fast enough to become a valid product in its own right. If Sony/BR gets its way - it will keep prices high - it will continue pandering to studio's rather than consumers - and we will probably have another laser-disk on our hands - where nobody wins - until the next format is released.

Bottom line - you cannot ask for an opinion and then tell us that you don't want a reply that talks about price ... when price is probably the number one reason why 95% of people who own the format bought it in the first place.

If HD-DVD had not been so reasonable - I'd still be sitting on the fence. Its ONLY because of HD-DVD's price that I am even considering a BR player ... had I not bought a HD-DVD player - i would not have seen what i was missing out on - and BR's price point was just too prohibitive for me... So the ONLy reason i am even thinking about getting a BR player - is because HD-DVD sold me a player at a price i could afford.

 

[stogie5150]

1)Sony doesn't have anything to do with it.
2) SEE (1) above.


And if I were to get a HD player, it would be HD-DVD because of that fact. Yep, sue me, I am a Sony hater.

 

[JoeSp]

If price was the bottom line HD-DVD would of buried BD long ago. What is happing is the exact opposite. No movie on HD-DVD has been sold for less then the same movie on BD. Since the middle of November price on standalones notwithstanding, BD has consistantly outsold HD-DVD right through Xmas. The only way Toshiba can seem to sell their HD-DVD players is by continuing to cut the price in half. Next stop will be selling them for $79.

What is interesting is nobody here has yet explained to my how HD-DVD is better then BD. Consumer friendly? What the heck is that? I put my BD movie in my PS3 and it plays every time. No problems with the picture, the sound or playback of any features. That is about as friendly as you can get.

And yes I can ask you for your oppion as to why HD-DVD is better then BD as outlined without referancing price because price is all you got and you are losing on every front. The BDA supporting studios are selling more BD discs then the HD-DVD studios and even with the supposed lower cost of pressing discs for HD-DVD and taking into consideration of BDA doing BOGOS, the studios supporting BD have reported more profit out of their sales then the HD-DVD camp. Even Warner finally admited that they made more money off BD then HD-DVD and hence they will be dropping HD-DVD.

I asked some pretty straight questions. They are refering to the HD experiance that you get when you are watching a HD-DVD movie and why you feel it is a better experiance then BD. I started this post because I keep reading posts where HD-DVD supporters are saying that their format is better. I want to know when viewing the movie how it is better.

As for more bang for the buck? Where? You have fewer movies to select from on the market. Fewer players to chose from. Only one major CE supporter, only two major studios and that is it.

More bang for the buck means more choice in both movies and players and right now it is BD that is offering that to the consumer. Simply put, folks pay for a Cadallic because they believe it to be worth the price of admision -- not neccesarily because it is worth that price. Just because something costs less does not mean that it is better or more friendly to the consumer.

If you can not answer my questions that I posed honestly and to the questions asked then in your own heart you do not really believe that HD-DVD is a better product for viewing movies. Just a CHEAPER one! I can accept that.

 

[mike123abc]

There is no way for HD-DVD to really be better for the actual movie than BD. BD uses the same codecs. BD can be better because it can have a higher peak bit rate, allowing less compression when needed. Not to mention it has had the higher capacity for quite a while (yes I know there were plans to release a higher capacity HD-DVD, but not a higher bit rate).

Extras can be made better with internet and PiP. Of course one now has to wonder how long internet extras will be available for HD-DVDs? Will the studios continue to support the content if they are not making and selling the HD-DVDs?

 

[diogen]

Lets try and see if we can keep this in perspective.

Let's do that.
To find the answer let's look from the opposite side.

Blu-ray has better specs. Always did. Bandwidth and storage being the biggies.
There is nothing HD DVD can do (by spec) that Blu-ray can't. BD-J can do everything HDi can and then some.
Video codecs are identical. Audio codecs close (difference lies in what is mandatory and what optional).

But that's nothing but theory. Whereas "better format" is nothing but practice.

About 500 movies were released in each format. Each format went through 3 generations of players.
Blu-ray had the whole roster of "Who is Who" of CE manufacturers on its side. Every major studio but one was publishing on Blu-ray.

And having all this - specs, CE, studios, established technology since April 2003 - Blu-ray could never show proof that it is a better format.
How hard is it to find a movie where 40Mbps is really needed and HD's 20Mbps would look miserable?
How hard is it to find a movie soundtrack where only PCM would do it justice?
How hard is it to do all this so that J6P would have no more questions about which is the "better format"?

It is hard and expensive to do a proper comparison but it would probably be a rounding error in Sony's red ink.
It wasn't done.

The only logical answer to "Why?" would be "The specs don't matter". BD beats HD in theory. Not in practice.

So we have to identical (in practice!) formats.
But, one is twice as expensive as the other and has some of the features only on paper for now.

Doesn't this answer the question which is the "better format"?

Diogen.

 

[haertig]

HDDVD and BR are equal. Each have pluses and both have minuses. These are all very minor differences and in the end the two formats come out equal.

Now if you have two choices that are functionally the same, then some people will chose the one with the higher price, and some will chose the one with the lower price.

The people who paid the higher price will defend their choice by saying it is better, and the ones paying the lower price will defend their choice by saying it was the the smarter financial move.

The discussion is an endless circle. HDDVD is no better than BR. BR is no better than HDDVD. The ultimate winner will not be the winner because it was better. Other factors will determine the winner.

 

[jokeworm]

If you can not answer my questions that I posed honestly and to the questions asked then in your own heart you do not really believe that HD-DVD is a better product for viewing movies. Just a CHEAPER one! I can accept that.

That's exactly what I'm saying .. which means that I am also saying that .. for me ... BR is not the better product either .... i've seen movies on both, they both look pretty much exactly the same to me .. so I'll take the one that is region free (given that I'm English and therefore its easy for me to get movies from the UK) and the one that costs me less... and the one that gives me the biggest bang for my buck.

In the same way that if I was in a store - and i was faced with a gallon of 2% milk that was $4 and a gallon of milk that was $8 - i personally would buy the $4 gallon of milk ... because the next morning it'd just end up all over my cornflakes and in my coffee anyways ...

Sorry - you asked me for my opinion - you can disagree with it all you like - but that's what's great about an opinion - you have one - and I have one - and sometimes they differ. I'm sorry that this obviously means much more to you than it does to me ... but all i wanted to do is watch Hi-Def movies for the least amount of money as possible - and i was unable to do that on BR when i was ready to purchase my first player.




edit : .. yeah .. what haertig said above ...

 

[vurbano]

Really, I think the only advantage HD DVD has is it is finalized.

Also HD DVD does not use uncompressed PCM without error correction. I will take perfect, error corrected, more efficient TrueHD anyday.

 

[vurbano]

Consumer friendly? What the heck is that?

Lower price, finalized specs and every player will play every disc and all of its features. Really an ignorant question JoeSp

 

[JonUrban]

HDDVD and BR are equal. Each have pluses and both have minuses. These are all very minor differences and in the end the two formats come out equal.

Now if you have two choices that are functionally the same, then some people will chose the one with the higher price, and some will chose the one with the lower price.

The people who paid the higher price will defend their choice by saying it is better, and the ones paying the lower price will defend their choice by saying it was the the smarter financial move.

The discussion is an endless circle. HDDVD is no better than BR. BR is no better than HDDVD. The ultimate winner will not be the winner because it was better. Other factors will determine the winner.

YES!

This wraps it up in a nutshell. Now the real question:

Why do the Blu-Ray-only fans care so much about HD-DVD? Why even pay attention to it?

 

[gadgtfreek]

YES!

This wraps it up in a nutshell. Now the real question:

Why do the Blu-Ray-only fans care so much about HD-DVD? Why even pay attention to it?

Only thing I care about is what Universal and Paramount are doing.

 

[mike123abc]

Only thing I care about is what Universal and Paramount are doing.

This is the key reason passions run so high, people do not like to have content that is excluded from their box. If all studios released in both formats there would be much less of a war. Now each side wants to win because they do not want to be denied content.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Universal and Paramount staying exclusive after May, once BD has 70% of the market, would be very irritating.

I still feel there is a better chance that retailers are going to decide this thing on their own.

 

[TheForce]

My take on it today-

HD DVD has more value added stuff to entertain beyond the basic movie than does Blu Ray.

However, I have to say I watch more BR disks than HD DVD because of availability. My source is the local BlockBuster movie pass rental store which now has 3 times as many BR disks as it does HD DVD. Therefore I have more titles to select from. I don't care that HD DVD has nearly the same number of titles published, if they are not at my fingertips to see and BR is, I rent the BR more often.
While the additional featureset on HD DVD is nice, I can live without it. The most important issue is will the disk play without trouble. Fortunately, with software fixes, they all play pretty well now except for Bourne Ultimatum on HD DVD. I'm not going to go out and buy a new player for that HDDVD.

 

[GeorgeLV]

Also HD DVD does not use uncompressed PCM without error correction. I will take perfect, error corrected, more efficient TrueHD anyday.

Are you that desperate?

The physical layer of the disc has more than enough error correction as does the HDMI transport.

 

[allargon]

Let's do that.
To find the answer let's look from the opposite side.

Blu-ray has better specs. Always did. Bandwidth and storage being the biggies.
There is nothing HD DVD can do (by spec) that Blu-ray can't. BD-J can do everything HDi can and then some.
Video codecs are identical. Audio codecs close (difference lies in what is mandatory and what optional).

What about play high def content off a regular DVD in ALL players? No, AVCHD doesn't count--even though most (read: PS3) Blu-Ray players can play it. The same is true for WMV HD. I am talking about authoring and burning a HD DVD on a standard cheap single or dual layer DVD. You can still get 30-45 minutes of content on there--perfect to record a network TV program without commercials.

Xylon still rates Hot Fuzz as the best looking disc on any format. Hey, you guys chose him with that Shoot 'Em Up thread.

HD DVD was a better format for the end user due to its much lower hardware cost, finalized standards and ease of transition. However, it only had a slim chance with only 50% of the content backing it vs. 90% (Blu-Ray, ironically has less studios than they did year ago.) on Blu-Ray.

By the way this is more like a billion dollar question than a million dollar question.

For Warner, it's 400-600 million
120 million for Fox
150 million for Paramount

Universal?
Lionsgate?
Disney?

 

[diogen]

What about play high def content off a regular DVD in ALL players?

Those are niche uses. Nice to have but not really that crucial in the grand scheme of things.
You can also add absence of BD+, ROM-Mark, region code.

It will be most interesting when it is finally revealed (or discovered) what the H.264 (AVC) parameters should be to make a HD/BD compliant encode.
After that you can download a MKV copy off the internet (encoded using x264), burn onto DVD and play on your HD player: new generation DivX players...

Even better would be to upgrade HD players firmware and make all current MKV files playable.

Diogen.