Have you notice some commercials are much loader than others and the channel program? I don't believe those load commercials are from the channel program. They're injected by Dish. I'm wondering if this is intentionally done. I'm getting very annoyed over this. I'm wondering if other such Direct, Uverse, or Cable do similar thing.
Why Dish Commercials are loader
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Loader?
Is that a front in loader? I didn't know that commercials used a loader just a playout.
Now if you are talking about louder then you should have done a search of the forums it has been talked about numerous times.
Is that a front in loader? I didn't know that commercials used a loader just a playout.
Now if you are talking about louder then you should have done a search of the forums it has been talked about numerous times.
This is an ongoing problem however it is not something that DishNetwork is doing or causing. If you want to be better informed on this issue just do an internet search on "Loud Commercials". I agree that it is annoying and should be better regulated by the FCC. The advertising industry will not self regulate this problem. There have been many threads posted about this here at SatelliteGuys. I started one myself a while back. In all the threads posted about loud commercials someone will often post that they dvr all their programs and fast forward through the commercials. Someone will post I just mute the commercial. At present that is all we can do but should we all be forced to hold our remote in our hand waiting on a commercial? No, of course not. Complain and keep complaining as I do to the FCC and our elected governmental representatives. For more Information on how to complain to the FCC here is some links and information. Visit the FCC’s Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau web site at Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau (CGB) , or contact the FCC’s Consumer Center by e-mailing fccinfo@fcc.gov; calling 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322) voice 1-888-TELL-FCC (1-888-835-5322) TTY; faxing 1-866-418-0232; or writing to:
Federal Communications Commission
Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau
Consumer Inquiries and Complaints Division
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554.
Last edited:
Posted just yesterday on EngadgetHD . . . .
It'll probably take an act of congress to ban loud commercials
by Ben Drawbaugh
posted Oct 9th 2009 at 4:16PM
Unfortunately with the dynamic sound of Dolby Digital sound in HD programming also comes crazy loud commercials. In addition to a few technical reasons, the main way advertisers get around the FCCs commercial volume regulations is by making the entire commercial just as loud as the explosion that killed off your favorite character. Obviously this is ridiculous and Rep. Anna Eshoo of California intends to do something about it by introducing CALM (Commercial Advertising Loudness Mitigation Act) to the House of Representatives. At the same time the folks at ATSC are looking for ways to let broadcasters get it under control, and of course there is Dolby Volume and SRS TruVolume if you want to take matters into your own hands. Personally we wish there was just a hack that would automatically hit the mute button during commercials, and just for the record, we DVR everything and skip commercials for everything except sports.
It'll probably take an act of congress to ban loud commercials
by Ben Drawbaugh
posted Oct 9th 2009 at 4:16PM
The problem has been known ever since more channels began using DD5.1. The real issue here is DD2.0 vs. DD5.1 If you study the encoding performed in the mux of DD audio, you will see what is going on. It is purely a technical issue and has a simple solution! Yes very simple.
But first of all, all of you need to get over that this is some sinister conspiracy on the part of Dish to annoy it's subscribers, or that it is done by the advertiser intentionally to make some spots louder than others ( except in certain cases). It's not. As I said it is a purely technical issue with a very very simple solution. BUT, unfortunately, the simple solution must be accomplished at the signal source where the audio is muxed to mpeg 2. This means that it must be done there and anywhere there is an insert of spots to the stream. That could mean that Dish holds some culpability in this as well but not all of it.
So here's the exact cause of the issue. If any of you really want to see which spots are louder than others look at the meta data in the Dolby digital audio. You will see that the issue is only present when you have DD5.1 enabled. In a receiver with only DD2.0, the problem will never show up. The reason is because DD meta data is being switched by the originating station between DD2.0 and DD5.1. IN MY OPINION, this is a huge mistake. However the problem comes with some caveats. follow with me on this for a moment-
Two different commercial producers have different capability. One produces a spot for General Motors in DD5.1 and the other produces a spot for Ford in DD2.0. There is no FCC regulation that requires one over the other. Now when each of these spots airs in a break, the DD2.0 will automatically sound louder than the spot with the DD5.1 audio. Note that both sets of audio are ALWAYS included in the mux but when the producer who only has DD2.0 present, the DD5.1 c hannels will be silent. The beauty of the Dolby system is that DDis automatically switched so that if both are present, DD2.0 and DD5.1 sets, the DD5.1 will be default unless the receiver is only capable of DD2.0, then that audio will be present. If you have only a DD2.0 receiver, you'll never hear the lower volume DD5.1 and have your audio adjusted for DD2.0 all the time. The reason why you may hear the difference is because your receiver is switching automatically between DD5.1 ( lower average volume but wider dynamic range) and DD2.0 (higher average audio volume with less dynamic range)
The simple solution is for a legal requirement that ALL commercials to air on any HD channel MUST be in HD and contain both DD2.0 and DD5.1. Of course the downside to this is that first, broadcasters will immediately lose advertisers in droves, those who do not have spots ready to go in DD5.1/DD2.0 mux in the digital audio stream. The SD / HD issue is simple enough to handle with upconversion. The audio is not so easy to do as an upconvert. However, Dolby does have a boxed answer. Unfortunately it is not cheap but it does line level the loudness between DD2.0 and DD5.1 . Last I spoke with Dolby engineers 2 years ago , they said the stations and production companies were resisting due to the cost. AS a TV spot producer, I'd have to side with the stations on this because the cost would seem to be less just to go ahead and add the DD5.1 sound track to match the levels during spot production than have to pay for a box to generate the mix. Furthermore, the box from Dolby doesn't really address the entire issue. It only resolves the issue when stations are switching the meta data in the stream. So, in reality, the only way I can see this technical issue being resolved is to require all programming that airs on an HD channel to be in HD and DD5.1/DD2.0. Then forbid the stations from switching the meta on and off DD5.1 and rely on the consumer's receiver to work the way the Dolby chip is designed.
I also spoke with an engineer at Echostar about it and they were working on a long rage method to resolve the issue in the VIP receivers using a form of AI in the software. This was a long range R&D effort and frankly, I don't hold much hope for it since he also said it wasn't of high priority. I recall he said it was on the same R&D priority as doing something cleaver with the black side bars when 4:3 AR programs appear on the HD channels.
I hope I explained the issue as I understand it. I interviewed several Dolby engineers on this, one CBS network executive, and one local station BE as well as two engineers from Echostar and trust me, everyone is aware of the problem and everyone understands the best solution is to require all programming to have the full mux channels and never have the audio switch during the broadcast.
One final comment about sound volume- There are some rare cases where a commercial will be produced with unusually loud volume in mono sound or even stereo that sounds louder than others. This is usually done when the producer orders up a high degree of audio volume compression to create the illusion of yelling due to script creativity. All good commercial producers know that annoying works in advertising so that is why they resort to it. If they feel the product can't motivate people on it's own merits, then they will resort to annoying to get the job done. Sorry, but that's just what they do. Loud is annoying, right?
But first of all, all of you need to get over that this is some sinister conspiracy on the part of Dish to annoy it's subscribers, or that it is done by the advertiser intentionally to make some spots louder than others ( except in certain cases). It's not. As I said it is a purely technical issue with a very very simple solution. BUT, unfortunately, the simple solution must be accomplished at the signal source where the audio is muxed to mpeg 2. This means that it must be done there and anywhere there is an insert of spots to the stream. That could mean that Dish holds some culpability in this as well but not all of it.
So here's the exact cause of the issue. If any of you really want to see which spots are louder than others look at the meta data in the Dolby digital audio. You will see that the issue is only present when you have DD5.1 enabled. In a receiver with only DD2.0, the problem will never show up. The reason is because DD meta data is being switched by the originating station between DD2.0 and DD5.1. IN MY OPINION, this is a huge mistake. However the problem comes with some caveats. follow with me on this for a moment-
Two different commercial producers have different capability. One produces a spot for General Motors in DD5.1 and the other produces a spot for Ford in DD2.0. There is no FCC regulation that requires one over the other. Now when each of these spots airs in a break, the DD2.0 will automatically sound louder than the spot with the DD5.1 audio. Note that both sets of audio are ALWAYS included in the mux but when the producer who only has DD2.0 present, the DD5.1 c hannels will be silent. The beauty of the Dolby system is that DDis automatically switched so that if both are present, DD2.0 and DD5.1 sets, the DD5.1 will be default unless the receiver is only capable of DD2.0, then that audio will be present. If you have only a DD2.0 receiver, you'll never hear the lower volume DD5.1 and have your audio adjusted for DD2.0 all the time. The reason why you may hear the difference is because your receiver is switching automatically between DD5.1 ( lower average volume but wider dynamic range) and DD2.0 (higher average audio volume with less dynamic range)
The simple solution is for a legal requirement that ALL commercials to air on any HD channel MUST be in HD and contain both DD2.0 and DD5.1. Of course the downside to this is that first, broadcasters will immediately lose advertisers in droves, those who do not have spots ready to go in DD5.1/DD2.0 mux in the digital audio stream. The SD / HD issue is simple enough to handle with upconversion. The audio is not so easy to do as an upconvert. However, Dolby does have a boxed answer. Unfortunately it is not cheap but it does line level the loudness between DD2.0 and DD5.1 . Last I spoke with Dolby engineers 2 years ago , they said the stations and production companies were resisting due to the cost. AS a TV spot producer, I'd have to side with the stations on this because the cost would seem to be less just to go ahead and add the DD5.1 sound track to match the levels during spot production than have to pay for a box to generate the mix. Furthermore, the box from Dolby doesn't really address the entire issue. It only resolves the issue when stations are switching the meta data in the stream. So, in reality, the only way I can see this technical issue being resolved is to require all programming that airs on an HD channel to be in HD and DD5.1/DD2.0. Then forbid the stations from switching the meta on and off DD5.1 and rely on the consumer's receiver to work the way the Dolby chip is designed.
I also spoke with an engineer at Echostar about it and they were working on a long rage method to resolve the issue in the VIP receivers using a form of AI in the software. This was a long range R&D effort and frankly, I don't hold much hope for it since he also said it wasn't of high priority. I recall he said it was on the same R&D priority as doing something cleaver with the black side bars when 4:3 AR programs appear on the HD channels.
I hope I explained the issue as I understand it. I interviewed several Dolby engineers on this, one CBS network executive, and one local station BE as well as two engineers from Echostar and trust me, everyone is aware of the problem and everyone understands the best solution is to require all programming to have the full mux channels and never have the audio switch during the broadcast.
One final comment about sound volume- There are some rare cases where a commercial will be produced with unusually loud volume in mono sound or even stereo that sounds louder than others. This is usually done when the producer orders up a high degree of audio volume compression to create the illusion of yelling due to script creativity. All good commercial producers know that annoying works in advertising so that is why they resort to it. If they feel the product can't motivate people on it's own merits, then they will resort to annoying to get the job done. Sorry, but that's just what they do. Loud is annoying, right?
Loud is annoying, right?
Don,
thanks for your input and as a 35 year veteran of the broadcast engineering community I agree with everything you said. But I would add that although "loud is annoying", "annoying is also LOUD". The very definition of "NOISE" is any sound you "DON'T WANT TO HEAR". So even if you get the commercial right it will almost always have more (not louder) sound than the dramatic program you are inserting into and will be annoying because it is unwanted. I was never able to make viewers happy on this subject because commercials will always “sound” louder even when they are actually at a lower volume.
Leon
Leon- Absolutely! But if you approach the subject of advertising, that is a separate set of goals. All we engineers can do in transmission is make sure the electrical difference is zero. The impact of a local used car salesman pitching his junkers on the public where we compress his voice and he yells for 30 seconds in your face/ears will always sound louder than the program on Sunday afternoon Beethoven concert. I repeat, from an ad perspective, Loud sells, soft doesn't sell. That's just how it is. From an engineering perspective, we need to be sure DD2.0 is not 6db louder than DD5.1 and that, I think, is the issue we're dealing with.
FWIW- most of my last 15 years in the business has been producing infomercials with breaks of 30 second spots. I would rarely set the loudness ( compression) of the 30 second spot different than the program content unless a special request was made by the director. But a series I did for PBS some 6 years ago had to maintain a demeanor per PBS specs ie. no speech compression. The same show redone for local broadcast commercial TV with spots replacing the PBS "tips and tricks educational piece was decided to have the usual compressed audio to beef up the loudness average. The results of the PBS vs. HGTV and local was amazing. Loud sells, soft is forgotten!
FWIW- most of my last 15 years in the business has been producing infomercials with breaks of 30 second spots. I would rarely set the loudness ( compression) of the 30 second spot different than the program content unless a special request was made by the director. But a series I did for PBS some 6 years ago had to maintain a demeanor per PBS specs ie. no speech compression. The same show redone for local broadcast commercial TV with spots replacing the PBS "tips and tricks educational piece was decided to have the usual compressed audio to beef up the loudness average. The results of the PBS vs. HGTV and local was amazing. Loud sells, soft is forgotten!
It does happen on all carriers, but it was never a problem to me until I moved to Dish. With Charter cable, it was noticeable but never bothered me to the point where I felt the need to complain.
So the OP can't spell? Yawn.
The OP does have a point. The louder commercials are an annoyance. I don't blame the dynamic range or the two channel vs 5.1 for the loud commercials. All the standard def commercials are two channel. Some companies (e.g., Toyota's Venza and Visa's "Superfreak") use dynamic range to great effect. Others (most notably BOSE! and PURESLEEP!) annoy the living daylights of our people's eardrums by going up a good 10 decibels plus like someone shouting in a library.
One can implement dynamic range control/night mode on his/her A/V receiver to disable it. However, that messes up the sound variations in action and horror movies. The loud commercials do suck. However, dynamic range isn't the problem. Bad advertisers are.
The OP does have a point. The louder commercials are an annoyance. I don't blame the dynamic range or the two channel vs 5.1 for the loud commercials. All the standard def commercials are two channel. Some companies (e.g., Toyota's Venza and Visa's "Superfreak") use dynamic range to great effect. Others (most notably BOSE! and PURESLEEP!) annoy the living daylights of our people's eardrums by going up a good 10 decibels plus like someone shouting in a library.
One can implement dynamic range control/night mode on his/her A/V receiver to disable it. However, that messes up the sound variations in action and horror movies. The loud commercials do suck. However, dynamic range isn't the problem. Bad advertisers are.
Unfortunately yes, since watching live TV, even when having 4 events you are switching between. Most channels usually go to commercial break at the same intervals, so sometimes they are inevitable.
Fine let's fix the spelling
"Why DISH commercials are louder"
This would indicate that the OP is going to explain why. As far as I can tell, this did not happen. In fact, quite the opposite.
A message board is a place for communication. The more you fill it with people who can't communicate properly, the more worthless it becomes.
If all programming on a channel is DD2.0 then you set your volume control to what's comfortable and you won't notice any difference except minor differences based on actual directorial intention. It's the fact that you'll have a switching of DD5.1 and DD2.0 on the same channel, that makes it noticeable.
