Basketbrawl

[TheTimm]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Pacers/Pistons/Pistons fans brawl of last night? Here are mine:

Despite the opinions of the local newscasters (Detroit), I'm not sure Ron Artest should shoulder all of the blame for this one. Yes, he went into the stands and that ain't good. But the original foul wasn't that hard. And he was just laying there. What's your reaction when someone starts throwing stuff at you? Seemed reasonable to me. I don't however, think you can really call it "self-defense" when you go chasing people up into the stands. If someone's right up in your face and you pop 'em -- yeah, absolutely self -defense. I have no problem at all with the Pacers beating on the fans that came on to the court. Go ahead and kick all kinds of hell out of those idiots. They're asking for it. But when you head up into the stands to punch on someone who lobbed a beverage at you, it seems to me at some point you make a transition from defending yourself to being on the offensive. Going up into a hostile crowd certainly isn't removing yourself from harm's way.

The punks that were beating on Artest and them from behind need to be shot. Or at least kicked in the neck and socked in the eye. That just ain't right. And that ain't how you're supposed to do it in Detroit, or anywhere else for that matter. Hopefully they can be identified from the tapes and prosecuted. Same thing for the tards that went on the court to get their fat asses kicked. And the cowardly punks that were pouring drinks and throwing popcorn and stuff as the Pacers tried to leave the floor.

Ben Wallace over-reacted. Big time.

Stephen Jackson is a punk. There's no need for all that posturing and gangta posing he was doing at the beginning. But I do give him credit for following Artest into the stands. Gotta help your boy.

Jermaine O'Neal got in a real good punch on the lard ass who was getting up off the floor. Nice. He had it comin'.

I thought ESPN did a much better job of covering it than the local news did. They pretty much blame Artest here. Go figure.

I'll bet David Stern suspends Artest for like, a century and makes Ben Wallace stand in a corner for fifteen minutes.

 

[vinnyv07]

I think that at no time should a multi million dollar player go up into the stands for anything. I dont care if their was a soda thrown at him or not. It shouldn't happen. There are kids that go to games like these and they are subjected to this type of animalistic behavior. As far as self defense....the player has no right to throw a first punch...in a fight if you throw the first punch you are the aggressor and the person who feels threatened by the punch has a right to defend themselves. The player threw the first punch...he shouldn't be allowed to play for the whole season. In all the years of watching sports I have never seen such a display. The fans were out of line but that doesn't mean that a player should incite a riot when he isn't even sure if the guy he is punching threw the soda at him. Really the NBA is in big trouble when it has stars more concerned about their rap album then the games at hand. Its really the reason why NBa attendance is down...nba RATINGS ARE DOWN....and everything to do with the nBA has been down since their best player ever retired. I'll never pay to watch these idiots play.

 

[jhogue@hrtc.net]

I agree. I would have probably went after the jerk also especially if I was already worked up. I mean he was trying to calm down and not cause anymore problems. He has even been trying to control his anger problems this year. But your right he probably will be made an example and Ben Wallce will get a smack on the wrist.

 

[TheTimm]

I think that at no time should a multi million dollar player go up into the stands for anything. There are kids that go to games

Can't really argue with that...

this type of animalistic behavior.

Personally, I'd call overreacting -- and even acting out violently with no justification -- very human-istic behavior.

As far as self defense....the player has no right to throw a first punch...in a fight if you throw the first punch you are the aggressor and the person who feels threatened by the punch has a right to defend themselves.

Kinda disagree with that. Here's why. Artest threw the first punch at one of the idiots that came on the court, but I certainly wouldn't call him the aggressor there. The idiot in question came walking directly at him with a scowl on his face and did that universal little hop thing (think Muhammad Ali; see previous remarks about Stephen Jackson - he did the same thing earlier when challenging the Pistons). When the idiot got close enough to Artest, Artest punched him. Twice. I think he went easy on him and showed great restraint. Why should he have to wait for the guy to actually throw a punch? That one was clearly self defense.

The player threw the first punch...he shouldn't be allowed to play for the whole season. In all the years of watching sports I have never seen such a display. The fans were out of line but that doesn't mean that a player should incite a riot when he isn't even sure if the guy he is punching threw the soda at him.

Agree. Agree. Agree.

since their best player ever retired.

What?! King James retired already? (I am so just kidding)

 

[charper1]

Everyone there one was wrong one way or another! Go figure that the local news Detroit news is already trying to spin the fact that their fans aren't jackasses.

Vinny you obviously didn't see the same game. The fan "threw the first punch" by throwing the drink at the player's face.

Let's examine the scene:

1. Did Ben Wallace incite the riot? Maybe; for over reacting reacting to a good hard foul on him, a bad FT shooter, that was going to get and easy layup. A foul is a foul let the refs call the game.

2. Did Ron Artest incite the riot? Maybe; not for fouling Wallace, but for not letting the arena security/police do there job on some drunk jackass or three.

3. Did the original fan or three incite the riot? Almost surely, for being the biggest idiot(s) on the face of the earth by starting the entire post-foul mess when he tossed a drink 12' into the scorer's area and onto an NBA player's face. What boyfriend was this guy trying to impress? What did he think would really happen next?

4. Did Stephen Jackson incite the riot? OK, this guy has to get the most NBA, and possibly police punishment of any player involved. He may claim he was protecting his team mate, but he went into the crown swinging at anyone and everyone he could get close to instead of pulling players and fans apart. He did WAY more harm than good, and just may have escalated the entire action.

5. OK what about all the other fans, especially those in the bench area seats and tunnel area stands, that threw bottles and poured drinks at any player they could see, or just anyone in general? What are these cowards thinking? What good were they doing? What example were they setting for all those KIDS IN THE CROWD? Talk about chicken-sh@t, mob-mentality, piling on! Were they just trying to get on TV?

Detroit!!! You just gave yourself a HUGE black-eye on this one. Those original 1 - 3 fans, Artest, the NBA refs, and the DET police/security should have all wrapped this up and been done in 5 minutes, but your 19+ thousand "fans" had to "flex" their muscles by acting like fools on national TV. Did they just show the city's true color?

I am as big of an Artest hater as most for his attitude, but he is going to take WAY TOO MUCH of the blame, from on what this ended up being. This is sad for everyone, including non-Detroit (now DET-RIOT) fans. They will either halt alcohol sales or remove the fans closeness to the court in NBA arenas. I hope that they use all the available ESPN footage to arrest every fan that took part. ESPN has so far been the most fair and balanced reporting of this story; a first for Jim Grey.

 

[Sean Mota]

Artes, Jackson, and Wallace suspended indefinetly until NBA investigates the incident. They cannot play anymore games until the NBA decides they can.

 

[TheTimm]

Detroit!!! You just gave yourself a HUGE black-eye on this one. Did they just show the city's true color?

We're pretty much used to the black eyes by now -- they almost don't feel right if they're not black (just means something's bound to happen soon). And unfortunately, yes, I think they did just show our city's true color. There is no shortage of idiots over here.

 

[charper1]

Sean is this reported or what you want to happen? I haven't heard yet.

 

[Sean Mota]

The Fans are wrong....​

When you buy a ticket to a sport event (basketball, baseball, football...etc), you buy the ticket with the intent of being entertained. No way a ticket gives you the right to throw anything to the floor or to players or to your own fans. That's purely being reckless and being ignorant that this is just a damn game! You can scream your heart out and curse as a fan but not to throw anything into the field or the court. That is forbidden. As soon as you decided to throw "things" into the field or court (soda, can, bottles, whatever) the object becomes a projectile with the intention to hurt or kill. Every fan caught in the video tape should be arrested and prosecuted for this behavior.

As much as I do not want to say that the players (in this case the pacers) acted violently, they (the players) were reacting to a very intense situation. You may or may not rationalize it. Do they players need to be prosecuted as well? IMHO, I do not think so. I thought that their reaction was an effect of what the instigators started (the fans). Remember at this point the game was lost already.

Whomever think that as a fan, he/she has the right in throwing objects that can eventually may kill someone, needs to stay home and throw objects to their TV or their HDTV.

 

[Sean Mota]

Sean is this reported or what you want to happen? I haven't heard yet.

Yes. ESPN just reported this. Add O'Neil to the list as well.

 

[charper1]

Headed to the TV, thanks Sean!

 

[TheTimm]

You can scream your heart out and curse as a fan

Actually, you can't. Unless they've changed the law and I missed it (possible), it's illegal in Michigan to curse in front of women and children. A couple years ago they actually prosecuted a canoer for letting off a string of expletives on a river trip.

But I'm pretty sure it's always been illegal to throw stuff at people. And I think we still have laws against assault here.

 

[Sean Mota]

Tom Wilson, Pistons President/CEO was just interviewed by ESPNEWS. This guy is such an ass***le. He is putting blame on people instead of putting the blame on their own security flaws. Security at these games needs to be up. I mean two cops for all the fans. Where was the security?

 

[TheTimm]

Oh, I think there's plenty of blame for everyone involved to share. Sure, the Palace's own security flaws played a part. But I'm not sure many, if any, other arenas could have done much more. How do you stop a fan from hurling a beverage? How do you stop the players from rushing into the crowd if they're so inclined? Line the floor with security (Who? - police, Palace, NBA, all of the above?)? Can anyone say "cage match"?
And be fair. I saw many more than two cops on the tapes. And many Palace security guards, too. Enough? Obviously not. But what do you want to do? One cop for every five fans? Every two fans? What do you suggest? Where should the security come from? Who pays for it? And do we go overboard for every sport, or just basketball? It's the same fans at Joe Louis and Comerica Park -- and pretty much the same security, too. Personally, I don't think there's really a need to go nuts with beefing up the security. Obviously this was an unusual incident or no one would even have an opinion on it.
Blame? Everyone. How 'bout the fans? How 'bout Artest and the Pacers? How 'bout Big Ben and the Pistons? How 'bout the Palace? The police? The NBA? I didn't see the ESPNews interview, but if Wilson is blaming only the fans, then he is an arse. Actually, he probably is anyway. But the fans do deserve as big a slice of the blame pie as anyone else.

 

[txcruiser]

Artest slugged the wrong guy! Boy is he gonna pay (and rightfully so!) I should be able to attend an NBA game, obey the rules, and not have to worry about a player coming out of the stands and clobbering me.

 

[vinnyv07]

Everyone there one was wrong one way or another! Go figure that the local news Detroit news is already trying to spin the fact that their fans aren't jackasses.

Vinny you obviously didn't see the same game. The fan "threw the first punch" by throwing the drink at the player's face.

I was talking about the fan who came down to the court and put his dukes up. The player threw a punch first. The fan didnt have a chance to get a punch off. Really the issue is how in the hell did that fan jump onto the court and be able to approach the player? Man they had some bad security going. And a fan throwing a drink is not right....I know...but its nothing like a punch. The funny thing is the fan that got beat up was probably not the fan who threw the drink. There is no excuse for what the players did...its uncalled for. Thats why their are rules for fans and rules for players. The fans and the players broke the rules. Both should be held accountable.

 

[charper1]

That was well after the brawl was under way; AND it was a fan entering the court of play therefore a player has the right to make the first move in that situation because he has no idea what the fan is about to do or what weapon he may have. Artest tossed one defensive punch and backed away.

Also; you are correct. The thin guy in the black shirt that Artest went after was the buddy. His friend in the blue jersey and white baseball cap was the drink thrower. Funny on the tape he is smiling at first and is the only one with his hands in their pockets and he pushes Artest toward the other guy. Then cheap-shots his way in from behind. My news here says police are already trying to ID that guy.

 

[barth2k]

I must say it's quite amusing to watch that short fat guy (comparatively speaking) getting on the court looking to mix it up with a few tall muscular prof. bb players. How did these numbskulls get such good seats?

but seriously, Artest should not have gone into the stand. He's a pro. This is his CAREER, his LIVELIHOOD. No matter what happens, you gotta stay calm. It's going to be hard to argue self-defense when it's clearly just retaliation. Does he have the right to retaliate? actually NO. Not in that setting. If it were a bar or on the street, yeah, but not in the stadium.

I know doctors who work in ER. They get drunk or high or just plain nuts patients who spit and throw sh** (literally) at them and all they can do is get security to hold them down and sedate them. They can't start punching the damn patient no matter how stressed out they are.

 

[charper1]

It's going to be hard to argue self-defense when it's clearly just retaliation. Does he have the right to retaliate? actually NO. Not in that setting. If it were a bar or on the street, yeah, but not in the stadium.

I know doctors who work in ER. They get drunk or high or just plain nuts patients who spit and throw sh** (literally) at them and all they can do is get security to hold them down and sedate them. They can't start punching the damn patient no matter how stressed out they are.

1. Self defense in general IS a form of retaliation.
2. By law, under the circumstances, he CAN retaliate, and thats what a court will decide.
3. When doctors have a guard or cop hold a patient down while they sedate them IS THEIR form of retaliation; it is just more civil.
4. I agree in part he shouldn't have gone in the stands, but what would you have done? What would an off-duty cop or judge have done in the same situation? How does ones career make defence more or less acceptable? Why the double standard? We are human and react to defend.

 

[vinnyv07]

One thing is for certain...both the fans and players acted in a wrong manner. Lets hope all sides learn something from this. Im sure they will.