Dish Network: Distant Networks

dfergie said:
exactly, living 300 miles away from your "local" stations sucks who cares if the Interstate in Albuqurque is blocked when it is so far away...Thats why I like the DNS...(grandfathered)

As stated, your DNS is somebody else's locals. Do you think that Chicago locals do not have weather alerts? Report on rush hour traffic? Of course not. You are grasping at straws. Any criticism you can level at your local station is equally applicable to DNS. I might be more sympathetic if you said something like the LA weather girl is really hot while the local one got hit with an ugly stick. Half of the time the problem is the crappy locals. The other half it is the "extra" programming you get. You ought to chose a story and stick with it. In any event, the DNS was not established to give you a choice of network stations. It was to provide network programming for the unserved customer. I know you don't want to hear that but sticking your fingers in your ears while shouting LA-LA-LA-LA-LA doesn't change reality.

Not sure this posted. Sorry if a dup.
 
wayne231 said:
Mick: You seem to expouse a lot about something being the law. This country was founded on certain beliefs and the founders went to great pain to guarantee those beliefs. Later generations have interpreted what the founders "meant" and formulated "law" that is guite contrary to what was intended. The pre-amble to the constituition states what can and can-not be a law. Please provide me with your reason's why the current "law" passes any of these requirements: form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty. I dare to venture that current "law" even violates the provisions.

Did you mean "espouse" or perhaps "ex-spouse" (probably not). Just for fun:


form a more perfect Union - strengthen localities by ensuring local content

establish Justice - make sure that the content owners are compensated and that others don't steal their property

insure domestic Tranquility - not allow large markets to overwhelm the smaller ones

provide for the common defence - ensure that specific information is provided for each city/region

promote the general Welfare - all the above

and secure the Blessings of Liberty - permit people to own property and decide how to best use it

Any other questions?
 
You are the dopey one every singal one of the quotes in italics are yours from dbs forums.

"Your distants are somebody Else's locals. So why are you willing to pay for multiple buckets of 20 hour a day INFOMERCIAL crap!" mick this is your statement not mine. You do not even remember what you wrote.

Well, why are you willing to pay if this is what you think of local TV?

"I watch very little network TV but I have a plethora of other choices. What exactly do you get from a distant network that you don't on the local that is so important to you? "

A question that you asked. It was not mine. it was yours and I posted to show that your agenda is to strip people of their legal right to obtain DNS based on the current law. I know you are against it because you said so. You said people with Lil Have no reason to receive DNS. Well it is not for you to decide. Congress made that decision to pander to the $$$.


I posted it earlier to show how biased you are in regards to DNS.

If the laws were not hijacked by the NAB and their members, and we could receive them then I have a feeling that you would be just as opposed to people
getting DNS.

You compare it to stealing over and over again. DBS must pay a royalty to the stations for carriage. If the amount is too low then raise it. As i stated in an earlier post people would be willing to pay for them. Why the NAB and their members ignore this potential revenue stream based on an outdated business model is just stupid. It is all about money though and our elected reps continue to ignore the wants of the people who elected them in favor of the business who lobby them.

You said to change them and that is what we are trying to do. So rather than quote the law over and over again write your elected officials and tell them you are in favor of the current system(but you have the NAB to do it for you). I and many others will continue to write them and ask for the changes we want. That is the beauty of America.
 
cj9788 said:
You are the dopey one every singal one of the quotes in italics are yours from dbs forums.

"Your distants are somebody Else's locals. So why are you willing to pay for multiple buckets of 20 hour a day INFOMERCIAL crap!" mick this is your statement not mine. You do not even remember what you wrote.

On the contrary. You do not realize (or don't care) that this was a response to another poster saying (essentially) that network TV was non-stop shop-at-home junk. My question back was why is he willing to pay to import more crap?

Well, why are you willing to pay if this is what you think of local TV?

Ditto

"I watch very little network TV but I have a plethora of other choices. What exactly do you get from a distant network that you don't on the local that is so important to you? "

A question that you asked. It was not mine. it was yours and I posted to show that your agenda is to strip people of their legal right to obtain DNS based on the current law. I know you are against it because you said so. You said people with Lil Have no reason to receive DNS. Well it is not for you to decide. Congress made that decision to pander to the $$$.

Yes because I was interested in the answer. However if you look at the other posts, the response seems to be a moving target. Almost a new reason each time. My opinion (and it is just that) is that anyone with LIL doesn't have a good reason for DNS. Now there are people with LIL that still can legally receive DNS. That's fine with me. I think the reasons for DNS are fairly weak but I can understand that others have a different opinion on their value. However if you cannot legally receive DNS, your opinion or desire does not override the law. Sorry.

I posted it earlier to show how biased you are in regards to DNS.

I am biased in favor of the law first. I do have a bias in that I think that providing DNS to served people (OTA) or LIL subscribers is not good public policy. However, I do not think that people that disagree with me are amoral or evil, just mistaken. I wish the other side would grant me the same courtesy.

If the laws were not hijacked by the NAB and their members, and we could receive them then I have a feeling that you would be just as opposed to people
getting DNS.

Did NAB stage a coup d'etat? I don't think so. Now if Congress says all DNS for everybody! I will disagree with the wisdom of that decision but will accept it.

You compare it to stealing over and over again. DBS must pay a royalty to the stations for carriage. If the amount is too low then raise it.

Yes, under a statutory license. This is legal. So what?

As i stated in an earlier post people would be willing to pay for them. Why the NAB and their members ignore this potential revenue stream based on an outdated business model is just stupid. It is all about money though and our elected reps continue to ignore the wants of the people who elected them in favor of the business who lobby them.

But absent a statutory license or contractual agreement, you do not have the right to the signals no matter if you send the networks (via Charlie Ergen) a million dollars a day. If it's all about the dollars and the NAB stands to make money hand over fist - why don't they do so? Do you think you are that much smarter than the network execs?

You said to change them and that is what we are trying to do. So rather than quote the law over and over again write your elected officials and tell them you are in favor of the current system(but you have the NAB to do it for you). I and many others will continue to write them and ask for the changes we want. That is the beauty of America.

Typically you contact your elected officials when you don't like the status quo or there is a change pending. If I wrote in support of every existing law I agreed with I'd have no time for our little chats.:hatsoff:


Fin Fin
 
micklewhite said:
On the contrary. You do not realize (or don't care) that this was a response to another poster saying (essentially) that network TV was non-stop shop-at-home junk. My question back was why is he willing to pay to import more crap?


The context of your post is not important. You quoted it as if I wrote it.


micklewhite said:

Your responce was directed to what you thought I wrote about local tv.

micklewhite said:
Well, why are you willing to pay if this is what you think of local TV?
 
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Now there are people with LIL that still can legally receive DNS.
oh who is changing their tune now? In almost every other post you say "if you can get locals, then you CANNOT get DNS thats the law."

That's fine with me.
obviously it isnt because you feel the need to keep saying "I'm done. this is the last on it" yet you keep coming back

I think the reasons for DNS are fairly weak but I can understand that others have a different opinion on their value.
yes we do. Mine has been posted numerous times
 
boy921 said:
Close but no cigar. There was no qualification in the early 90's.
Sorry, kid. I have the cigar. There certainly was qualification in the early 90's, and even TNGTony agrees. If the provider did nothing to qualify you, that still doesn't mean there weren't qualifications.

Funny how the networks and their affiliate boards started this copyright infringement lawsuit against Dish Network in 1998, less than two years after the start of Dish Network.
 
GaryPen said:
In fact, I mentioned specifically that if any fees are charged to the sub for retransmission, then the originator of the prgram should be compensated. I see nothing wrong with laws to prevent the distance provider from adding commercials or recovering more than the cost of transmission, unless some other arrangment was agreed to by the parties involved.
Ok. Now let me get this straight...

Why do you see nothing wrong with additional laws to prevent the distance provider from adding commercials? Why do you see no problem if there is "some other arrangement" that is "agreed to by the parties involved"? Sounds like you have no problem with the free market trying to sort itself out...
Greg Bimson said:
Funny. Does Dish Network have a contract with a network station to distribute the feed nationwide, just as Dish Network does for ESPN and HBO?

NO.
So tell me about the nationwide contract Dish Network has signed with CBS, ABC, NBC and FOX, like the ones they have with ESPN and HBO. Or do you not know enough about the law to understand it?
 
micklewhite said:
Now there are people with LIL that still can legally receive DNS.
Iceberg said:
oh who is changing their tune now? In almost every other post you say "if you can get locals, then you CANNOT get DNS thats the law."
Because mickelwhite is correct. It is in the law.

If you qualified for distant networks and were subscribed to them before the SHVERA was enacted, then can still receive them. If you tried to qualify now, micklewhite is correct that you cannot qualify immediately if locals are offered to you.

As I have said in another thread, distant network service becomes moot once the analog cut-off is complete. In less than three years, distant networks will be a thing of the past.

But no one has focused on the future cut-off, just the impending one against Dish Network.
 
Greg Bimson said:
Because mickelwhite is correct. It is in the law.

If you qualified for distant networks and were subscribed to them before the SHVERA was enacted, then can still receive them. If you tried to qualify now, micklewhite is correct that you cannot qualify immediately if locals are offered to you.

correct. If you were grandfathered in then you can keep them right now. But Mickle doesn't seem to care in that aspect and keeps saying "why should you have distants when you have your locals" (even though in some cases "locals" are a couple hundred miles away
 
Mick is a E* basher and has stated that he is glad this is happening to E*.

He also stated:

micklewhite said:
True you cannot have both. But you don't get a choice either. If you are in a LIL area, you can get LIL, no DNS. You may be able to get SV but that is a different animal. Please point me to the section of the law that supports what you say and I will step back.

And This:

micklewhite said:
Impossible. You cannot have both simultaneously (legally speaking). Did you have DNS under the grandfather rules or (more likely) the Grade B rules? It sounds more like the second. Apparently you lost DNS because it was discovered that you were not eligible (perhaps never were). Moving in and of itself does not render you ineligible. Something else changed.


And this in responce to me:

micklewhite said:
You are not eligible for DNS. This is what has caused the problem for E*. I understand that you want, desire, and demand things and are willing to pay for them. Unfortunately the law doesn't care about your wants, desires and demands. Thanks to folks like you, truly unserved E* customers are about to lose their network access. It was not my decision. It was that of the Congress of the United States of America. Take it up with them.

And I am in a True white area before the dead line.

He changed his tune after I pointed out the section of SHERVA that states you can have LiL and DNS if you had them before the Dec 8 2004 cut off. He said he would review it and respond but never did. He just changed his banter.

I was wrong about the grand fathered status not being able to carry over. The 11th circut ruled that the lower courts misinterpreted the law. But The FCC as I posted maintains that your grandfathered status does not carry over. That said I highly doubt that Either DBS company will honor the status. IE if I wanted to switch companies and I can prove that I received LIL and DNS before Dec 8th 2004 the company will not honor it because of the possible consequences that E* is now facing.

Greg I have read your posts for the last couple of years and the one thing I can say about you is that you have never bash E*. You never wrote with a sense of joy at the prospect of E* having to pull DNS.

Mick on the other hand is receiving a tremendous amount of joy out of this whole situation......
 
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If I remember correctly from what Charlie said in a Charlie Chat in late 1998 or early 1999 after the Thanksgivings Day Massacre was that we were grandfathered for 5 years or until we put your locals on the Dish.

Well Nov 2003 came and went so I assumed we are still grandfathered. Granted I am now living in an area where the cable company has DNS for FOX, NBC and the WB while not even offering UPN.

In fact Sincalir broadcasting was in a fight with the new owners of Charter Cables WV systems known as Suddenlink. Sinclair wanted big $$$$$$$$$$ to carry WCHS 8 the ABC affiliate from Charleston WV and WVAH 11 the FOX affiliate from Charleston. Now we have a local ABC WOAY 4 here in Beckley that provides ABC programing. WCHS and WVAH demmanded there programing be pulled on 5 July 2006.

Now if we have a local ABC what right does the cable company have to carry a distant ABC affiliate. Now the local ABC station has no problem with it nor does it have the time or the money or the interest to go after people with NY and LA stations so I dont see what the hassle is.

FOX on the other hand which does not have a regional broadcaster granted permission for FOXNET to air on cable in Beckley which sent Sincalir broadcasting into a rage as it wiped out their negociating leverage. . . .

Last Tuesday Suddenlink Cable informed Sincalir broadcasting that that it would pull WVAH and WCHS from the other systems which it had contracts for at midnight Thursday if an agreement was not reached. . .

Well returned froma tip to Virginia Beach that Wednesday and what do you knopw WCHS and WVAH were restored to Beckely-Oak Hill WV's cable systems.

So in short if the local stations NBC and ABC dont care if the cable company airs DNS why should they care about Dish Network or DirecTV
 
micklewhite said:
Well, right now fees are charged to the sub and the originator is paid royalties. This is usually the case for copyrighted materials. The question is who gets to decide when and how the material is distributed. Should it be you, the distributor or the owner?
Then what is the problem? The originators receives their royalties. Ah yes. The problem is not with the originator. The problem is that our local distributors don't want us to receive the programming from the source.
micklewhite said:
I think Greg and I understand the system very well. It has everything to do with copyright. It is in Title 17 of the United States Code. Title 17 is....drum roll please....Copyrights! You keep saying that the system is unconstitutional over and over again as if by doing so you can make it come true. It is not true. The Constitution specifically and explicitly gives Congress the power over copyright. Whatever the motivations of the copyright owner it doesn't change the law. The fact that you are peeved does not change the law. The fact that you want, want, want does not change the law. You need to grow up.
Just saying "copyright, copyright, copyright" over and over again is not gonna make this law's true underlying motivation suddenly be about copyright, anymore than saying WMD over and over made WMD the real reason for invading Iraq. It is all about a bunch of local broadcasters desperately trying to hang on to their little fiefdoms.
micklewhite said:
The physical limitations of the technology still prevents such viewing. You cannot, on your own, receive LA stations in NY. You require the assistance of a DBS company. The signals are encrypted for a reason. Otherwise you could use the appropriate FTA receiver and set up a dish without the need for E* or D*.
You're wrong twice in this paragraph. 1. I can, on my own, receive these broadcasts by using a PC or a SlingBox, and the Internet. 2. The originating broadcasts are not encrypted. The satellite carraige of those braodcasts are. That is to prevent people from using the dbs company's resources with compansating them for their work in bringing the broadcasts to you. No different than paying an ISP for carriage of digital signals from a distant PC with tuner card, or a Slingbox.
micklewhite said:
The only similarity is the concern for people using new technology to steal the property of others. If you copy tapes/CD's/DVD's/whatever in violation of the copyright law you are a thief. End of story. Why is it that someone who (we hope) would not think of shoplifting a CD has no qualms about stealing it at home? Is the locus of the crime really make a difference to you?
Wrong again. The movie industry didn't want to sell only one copy of a movie, then have a bunch of people rent that one copy, giving their money to the rental agent. They wanted everybody to pay $89.95 for a VHS copy of Porky's. But, they couldn't stop the new paradigm, finally learned to embrace it, and have reaped the benefits since.
The recording industry was dead set against MP3, as it was indeed a way to illegally distribute copyrighted content. (The same was true of cassette tape, btw) But, they have now embraced it, and are reaping the rewards through services like iTunes.
The broadcast industry was dead set against VCR's (and later, DVR's) because they wanted to control when we had to watch their programming, and, most importantly, did not want us to skip the commercials.
Nobody is arguing that theft is wrong. You are trying to twist this argument to make it seem as if that is what this is all about. Of course, it is not. It is about control.
micklewhite said:
No - because the networks do not fill the entire day. They rely on local affiliates for some part of the programming. They also need to meet their public interest charge. But even assuming that what you say is true, our elected representatives have decided that the system in place is the best choice. I suppose that could change down the line but as long as most viewers have an interest in local programming I doubt it.
It is looking more and more that the political makeup of our legislative branch will take a profound shift to those whose interests lie less with big business, as it has for about 12 years now, and towards a more consumer friendly environment. If that happens, we should see a new attitude at the FCC, and a revisiting of SHVERA in the senate and house.
And, yes, most viewers may prefer the local programming, if they had a choice. But, most viewers would probably say they would like that choice, which they are denied currently.
micklewhite said:
Both are important considerations. The goal of localism (it is a goal whether you agree or not) is protected by the mechanisms of the copyright law. That is simply fact. I understand you think a different model would be better. Work towards it but don't smear others by claiming that heartfelt convictions are a "smokescreen."
It is a smokescreen. The proponents of localism are hiding behind a valid legal protection of copyright law. They are corrupting it for their own ends. And, yes, I will do what I can to change it. I will vote, as I always do, for representatives and leaders who have the interests of their citizens in miind, and not the interests of big business, the wealthy, the shareholders, or their country club/fraternity buddies. Finally, after years of being neglected, perhaps the majority of my fellow Americans will do the same.
 
Robert NTSC Archivist said:
So in short if the local stations NBC and ABC dont care if the cable company airs DNS why should they care about Dish Network or DirecTV
That's because they don't care if dbs carries them either. You guys really have to understand that this whole thing is due to local broadcasters like Sinclair not wanting you to receive netwrok signals either from the source, or from another market.
 
cj9788 said:
The context of your post is not important. You quoted it as if I wrote it.

Context is always important. I have not gone back to look at the posts but will take your word. It was not my intention to attribute to you the words of the other poster. Please accept my apologies. My intent was to use the other post to demonstrate the inconsistency of the reasons given for wanting DNS.

Your responce was directed to what you thought I wrote about local tv.

That's all...
 
Iceberg said:
oh who is changing their tune now? In almost every other post you say "if you can get locals, then you CANNOT get DNS thats the law."

With few exceptions that is the law. If you were the individual who wrote about the 12/08/2004 "Grandfather II" date let me say that you were indeed correct and I had missed this exception. To the extent that I said you were wrong about you situation, I apologize.

obviously it isnt because you feel the need to keep saying "I'm done. this is the last on it" yet you keep coming back

Well, if certain people would stop misreading or misinterpreting what I say. Or at least respond civilly there would be no need to come back. But if this is somehow an issue for you (Side A gets unlimited space, Side B gets cut off). No problem. As soon as I clean up what's left, I'm outta here. I don't want to mess with somebody with "staff privileges."

yes we do. Mine has been posted numerous times

no more
 
Iceberg said:
correct. If you were grandfathered in then you can keep them right now. But Mickle doesn't seem to care in that aspect and keeps saying "why should you have distants when you have your locals" (even though in some cases "locals" are a couple hundred miles away
Are your distants closer than your locals? I do think that DNS should be limited to narrowly defined groups. But I don't get to make the decision. If you have DNS legally, go forth and watch it.
 
Make the local network station supply a usable signal to every square foot of it's DMA. We have a low powered FOX station 56 miles away, that a a good day has less then 20 mile radius stopping me from watching my NFL team on NFLST. This station is unwatchable for me. PASS a law making all my network watchable and don't much care about DNS, we'll get them all some day.
JUST MAKE LOCAL NETWORKS SUPPLY USABLE SIGNAL EVERYWHERE IN THE DMA!
 
micklewhite said:
Are your distants closer than your locals?
huh? don't understand the question. Considering the only distants are NY, LA, Atlanta (I think), Chicago all of those are farther that what is considered "locals"

I do think that DNS should be limited to narrowly defined groups.

finally we agree on something. If someone lives in an area that cannot pick up channels OTA, they should be entitled to distants. But unfortunatelly, Nielsen decided to put everybody in a DMA regardless if you can pick up a signal or not. (they must have taken the lead from baseball which did the same thing). So why should people in these areas (that cannot get a good signal OTA) not be allowed to get distants? But DBS doesn't allow that anymore if "locals" are available which is bunk.

If you couldn't see those channels ("locals") before, why do they have a right to claim you? Now I understand if you say you can't pick them up (and really didn't try). But there are legit areas that can't get any reception due to distance or terrain. So because some "local" stations claim an area, you are stuck with those stations.

If you have waivers, your local stations is waiving the right to be your "exclusive" station. So they should have distants. Same with people who are too far away from the stations.
 
cj9788 said:
Mick is a E* basher and has stated that he is glad this is happening to E*.

Where? I think I said that the law should be enforced and that Charlie deserved this result. I am not glad or happy about it. I am a E* customer of long standing (two installations) with DNS, yes, DNS at one of them. I will lose that service as a result of E* bad acts.

He also stated:



And This:




And this in responce to me:



And I am in a True white area before the dead line.

He changed his tune after I pointed out the section of SHERVA that states you can have LiL and DNS if you had them before the Dec 8 2004 cut off. He said he would review it and respond but never did. He just changed his banter.

I do not go back and back to old posts. I think it is clear that I recognize this small segment of the customer base. Since you have identified yourself as the individual involved (I thought it was the other guy but never mind...) let me publicly and loudly state that you were correct about your situation. I was not aware of this additional exception at the time. I am sorry for whatever distress I have caused you. Really.

I was wrong about the grand fathered status not being able to carry over. The 11th circut ruled that the lower courts misinterpreted the law. But The FCC as I posted maintains that your grandfathered status does not carry over. That said I highly doubt that Either DBS company will honor the status. IE if I wanted to switch companies and I can prove that I received LIL and DNS before Dec 8th 2004 the company will not honor it because of the possible consequences that E* is now facing.

It is honorable of you to admit an error. And you may be right about D* reluctance to take on folks like yourself for DNS. Just to be accurate I don't think your exception requires both DNS and LIL as of 12/8/04 just DNS, this is a little different than the true grandfather provisions. In other words if you were unserved with DNS on 12/8/04 and LIL finally makes it to your DMA, you don't have to give up DNS to get LIL.

Greg I have read your posts for the last couple of years and the one thing I can say about you is that you have never bash E*. You never wrote with a sense of joy at the prospect of E* having to pull DNS.

Why do you think I am happy because of this situation? It just doesn't make sense.

Mick on the other hand is receiving a tremendous amount of joy out of this whole situation......

And you were doing so well....

that's done
 

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