DISH -VS- VOOM - A Settlement has been reached!

[HDRoberts]

Reading the order, it sounds like they did not destroy evidence once the suit started. The issue is when they "reasonably" could have anticipated legal action, which is when they had to suspend usual email cleanup. Given Dish's propensity for legal squabbles, they probably have a pretty aggressive policy on deleting old email, but they just did not but a stop to it earlier. It does not sound to me like the Enron-type "send everything to the shredders" infraction. Still, bad to start on the judges bad side.

Most significantly, it certainly seems both arguments have merits. The contract is clearly ambiguous as to the definition of "service" and rather or not it was 15, 10, or 21 channels.

 

[Yes616]

How many times do you see "spoliation" and "finagling" in the same paragraph.

And "egregious". Is Charlie's last name "Ergen" some sort of spin on this word?

 

[Hall]

Reading the order, it sounds like they did not destroy evidence once the suit started. The issue is when they "reasonably" could have anticipated legal action, which is when they had to suspend usual email cleanup. Given Dish's propensity for legal squabbles, they probably have a pretty aggressive policy on deleting old email...

Obviously Dish may have or have had a stricter internal policy on document or e-mail deletion, but Sarbanes-Oxley has dealt with this for a number of years. Of course, most companies probably ignored it for a number of years before getting strict about it ! When did the Dish/VOOM lawsuit start ? SOX passed in 2002.

 

[lern4483]

Thanks Riffjim for keeping us informed with the status. I'm one who loved the Voom channels (repetitive, or not), and signed up for E* in 2007 thinking I'd have those channels for 12 or so years...silly me.

I know that our rates will probably go up if E* doesn't prevail in this (as if E* needs a reason to raise rates/fees), but I kinda hope they don't prevail in this lawsuit. I've never felt the same way about my E* service since Voom was removed in May 2008.

...and if E* did intentionally destroy evidence, I hope they get smacked badly...sounds like the judge isn't going to put up with BS.

I'll attempt to wade through the 57 pages this week, but thanks for your summary of this document.

Fitz,

I feel exactly the same way you do about the Dish Voom fiasco.

While I still love dishes dvrs, I hope in this case they get taken to the cleaners.
I too braught dish back in 2007 soley for Voom.

Its a shame that it never worked out.

 

[Yes616]

When did the Dish/VOOM lawsuit start ?

Wasn't even before Voom yanked the channels around May 10, 2008? One day we lost 10 then the last 5 the following day.

And to my old friend lern4483. To this day, nothing beats MonstersHD and RaveHD. I still sorely miss those channels.

 

[paja]

Wasn't even before Voom yanked the channels around May 10, 2008? One day we lost 10 then the last 5 the following day.

And to my old friend lern4483. To this day, nothing beats MonstersHD and RaveHD. I still sorely miss those channels.

I dumped DISH partly because they dropped VOOM which included my favorite HD channel ever-MONSTER HD. Loved RAVE also

 

[whatchel1]

Wasn't even before Voom yanked the channels around May 10, 2008? One day we lost 10 then the last 5 the following day.

And to my old friend lern4483. To this day, nothing beats MonstersHD and RaveHD. I still sorely miss those channels.

Rave was really great loved it. I was a voom legacy.

 

[NotMe546]

God, Voom is dead get over it.

 

[pendragon]

VOOM is dead, but there are two separate, lingering legacies.

First is the lawsuit over the contract. The record is pretty clear that VOOM was fine with the contract, while DN was angling to terminate it by any technical argument it could internally muster. This does not put DN in the best light because what was once a mutually beneficial pact, suddenly became a heavy burden with a weakly justified rationale.

Second is the mask DN has worn for their subscribers. VOOM did have a fair amount of unique and high quality content. Not just Monsters and Rave. From the get-go DN has downplayed the value of the VOOM programming, and insisted from the lowest CSR to Ergen himself that their other offerings were effective substitutes. A year ago Ergen was confronted with a broad and detailed list of what had not been replaced. He acknowledged that, but advised this would largely be overcome within the year. I have not seen the slightest hint of anything on that list in subsequent DN offerings.

 

[JohnEL]

Simply put;
DISH can not put up anything to replace VOOM, because there is nothing available out there to equal what VOOM had to offer-even with the many repeats!
So Sad

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

The sad part here is DISH wanted to keep 5 of the VOOM channels and VOOM pulled them saying it was all or nothing.

That is why 5 VOOM channels remained for a few days after the other ones got chopped.

I would have rather had the 5 channels then no channels.

 

[JohnEL]

ME TOO :up

 

[Hall]

...because there is nothing available out there to equal what VOOM had to offer-even with the many repeats!

I do admit, I liked have VOOM channels available, but if they were soooo good, why didn't anyone else carry them ? Cablevision hardly counts... 1) They're owned by the same company and 2) they are a regional cable company, not widely available like TW, Comcast, etc, etc.

 

[HDRoberts]

The sad part here is DISH wanted to keep 5 of the VOOM channels and VOOM pulled them saying it was all or nothing.

That is why 5 VOOM channels remained for a few days after the other ones got chopped.

I would have rather had the 5 channels then no channels.

This is also why I cannot stand people that want to exclusively blame Dish and assign Rainbow no blame.

There was a simple root cause: Dish signed a bad deal. When they started to realize this in 2007, they began to look for a way out, and felt they found one when their audit found overhead items included in spending that Dish though should be exclusively programming related. They tried to use that as leverage to get a new deal, but Rainbow would have none of it.

At the same time, Rainbow decided it was easier to sit on their rears instead of market the channels, deciding it was better to be a parasite eating away at Dish's HD customers than going after new sets of customers.

But all this "evil Dish killed Voom because they hate good HD" is ridiculous. Voom was not bringing many customers, and those that did come for Voom only watched a small subset of channels. What was Dish to do when DirecTV was launching HD-less channels like MTV that customers were flocking to, while Dish could not even find dozens of people to watch HDNews or Ultra HD?

 

[Hall]

There was a simple root cause: Dish signed a bad deal. When they started to realize this in 2007, they began to look for a way out, and felt they found one when their audit found overhead items included in spending that Dish though should be exclusively programming related. They tried to use that as leverage to get a new deal, but Rainbow would have none of it.

At the same time, Rainbow decided it was easier to sit on their rears instead of market the channels, deciding it was better to be a parasite eating away at Dish's HD customers than going after new sets of customers.

It also seems that VOOM took advantage of the deal and did nothing to improve it. A big issue was that VOOM wasn't creating any new programming and even I noticed that (without having a lawsuit in which Dish stated this was a factor).

Voom was not bringing many customers, and those that did come for Voom only watched a small subset of channels.

Those viewers also had nowhere to go to continue to get VOOM either ! I wonder how many people contacted D* or their local cableco with pleas to add the VOOM channels ?

 

[multnomah]

I do admit, I liked have VOOM channels available, but if they were soooo good, why didn't anyone else carry them ? Cablevision hardly counts... 1) They're owned by the same company and 2) they are a regional cable company, not widely available like TW, Comcast, etc, etc.

Probably because they were so good! VOOM had better picture quality than anything else on cable or satellite, which must have consumed a huge amount of bandwidth, but only the small minority of viewers who had top-quality HD tv's could appreciate it. Multiply that high bandwidth requirement by 15 channels, and you get an enormous number of HD-Lite stations that DISH could add once VOOM was out of the way.

It's too bad Cablevision and VOOM couldn't have combined the VOOM material into a smaller number of channels. That would have freed up some transponders for HD-Lite stations without reducing the programming.

 

[riffjim4069]

This is also why I cannot stand people that want to exclusively blame Dish and assign Rainbow no blame.

There was a simple root cause: Dish signed a bad deal. When they started to realize this in 2007, they began to look for a way out, and felt they found one when their audit found overhead items included in spending that Dish though should be exclusively programming related. They tried to use that as leverage to get a new deal, but Rainbow would have none of it.

At the same time, Rainbow decided it was easier to sit on their rears instead of market the channels, deciding it was better to be a parasite eating away at Dish's HD customers than going after new sets of customers.

But all this "evil Dish killed Voom because they hate good HD" is ridiculous. Voom was not bringing many customers, and those that did come for Voom only watched a small subset of channels. What was Dish to do when DirecTV was launching HD-less channels like MTV that customers were flocking to, while Dish could not even find dozens of people to watch HDNews or Ultra HD?

Absolutely...there is plenty of blame to be shared by both parties. IMO, both parties have a duty to ensure the other partner is successful in this business venture...this did not happen here: Dish signed a bad agreement; VOOM decided to milk the cash cow (Dish) instead of improving the product and marketing their wares; Dish decided it was cheaper to terminate the agreement (legally or not) instead of paying affiliation fees for the next 13 years. Now it's a money grab for the courts to decide.

 

[pendragon]

The sad part here is DISH wanted to keep 5 of the VOOM channels and VOOM pulled them saying it was all or nothing.

That is why 5 VOOM channels remained for a few days after the other ones got chopped.

I would have rather had the 5 channels then no channels.

If you were VOOM, believing you had a valid contract and believing you were in full compliance, accepting DN bullying would not make much business sense. Furthermore the economies of scale probably would not have allowed VOOM to survive under DN's forced terms. It's not clear to me that Dish made any good-faith effort to re-negotiate their contract with VOOM, other than attempting to dictate a solution by interpreting ambiguous language entirely in their own favor.

This deal was ill-conceived by DN from the beginning because there were few checks and balances or performance clauses that required VOOM to present what DN considered to be competitive channels. VOOM chose to emphasize an eclectic set of programming that was not being offered elsewhere. In fact the other HD programming being offered at that time was limited, narrow in scope and beset with significant SD material. VOOM's strategy was a serious risk, but given time they might have established strong niche audiences. However without a sweetheart deal from DN and a track record, it was unlikely VOOM would be able to add other distribution options for quite awhile. When DN walked, the business game was over and the legal games began.

DN's repeated claims the VOOM material would be replaced by even better were hollow. There are now a lot more HD channels sucking bandwidth and lowering picture quality. But the content is pretty much the same as it was - unimaginative and commercialized. My family is not getting anywhere near the value from our subscription as when VOOM was on the list, in spite of being in the highest tiers. We've mostly switched over to OTA, FTA and Canadian DBS. If DN were shutdown tomorrow, there would be few tears here.

The sad part was not losing the last five channels. The damage was done and what was left were a few random, and in my mind, poorly representative scraps. The sad part was losing a quality programming concept we are not likely to see again.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

VOOM had to spend x number of dollars per year on their programming, instead of spending on the programming they were spending it on saleries, bonuses and other things that DISH did not consider programming related.

DISH wanted to keep VOOM and took the 5 most widely watched channels but again VOOM said all or nothing so the other 5 were pulled.

I feel VOOM would still be here today if Cablevision didnt do that.

 

[HDRoberts]

If you were VOOM, believing you had a valid contract and believing you were in full compliance, accepting DN bullying would not make much business sense. Furthermore the economies of scale probably would not have allowed VOOM to survive under DN's forced terms.

When you alternative is seeing Dish walk away entirely, followed by a 5 year+ legal battle, that should at least get you to the table. It should also get them marketing the channels elsewhere. But instead of forming a symbiotic relationship, Rainbow chose a parasitic relationship.

It's not clear to me that Dish made any good-faith effort to re-negotiate their contract with VOOM, other than attempting to dictate a solution by interpreting ambiguous language entirely in their own favor.

By what facts do you make that conclusion? And did not Rainbow try to dictate a solution by interpret ambiguous language entirely in their favor as well?

For instance, Rainbow would have us believe that any and all salaries were part of its spending. Thus, without spending a dime on programming, they could have met their requirement just by splitting $100 Million. To me, that does not sound like what anyone intended.

DN's repeated claims the VOOM material would be replaced by even better were hollow.

I disagree. I enjoy the HD programming I have been getting from other networks far more than anything I ever watched on Voom.


If you ask me, another significant factor was the loss of the Voom DBS operation. It always seemed Rainbow management was conflicted about keeping the channels going, and I fully believe the Dish mess is what enabled those Rainbow execs to get their way.