DP-34 Grounding Question...............

[Parlyle]

Is there a way to leave the DP-34 switches (2) in my basement and have them grounded to the outside grounding rod? I am in the process of getting ready for the 942 and want to keep the switches in the basement, where they aren't so available to vandals. I thought of having the coax grounded outside on a grounding block and then feeding into the switches, but won't this extra cut degrade the signal? ie: Dish LNB > grounding block outside > DP-34 switch > recievers I seem to have remembered another thread that addressed this problem, but haven't had any luck finding it. Please any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. The 942 should be coming shortly.
I also will have an 811 and a 510 and a 508 hooked up too.
Thanks:
Lyle

 

[SatinKzo]

I see no signal degradation on my setup with the grouding block and switch. My setup is this:

Dish > Ground Block >DP34>DPP44>seperator>receiver
I have receivers running off the 34 and 44.

Yes, I know, I don't need the extra DP34 etc, but I already had the two cables run and didn't really care.
I see no lost signal, expericened rain fade a couple times (before I had the DPP44 or 34) so it was not a signal loss issue in the cable.

BTW, not that you are suggesting it, SimpleSimon and I went round on this and I cannot find the thread, but no biggie. The switches CANNOT be used in place of a grounding block.

 

[Matt]

If I am not mistaken, I saw another threat regarding a grounding block on the dp 34 or 44 switch.
There I read, that both switches have each a ground connection (on one of the corners of the switch) , so one wouldn't need an additional ground block.
Matt

 

[SatinKzo]

If I am not mistaken, I saw another threat regarding a grounding block on the dp 34 or 44 switch.
There I read, that both switches have each a ground connection (on one of the corners of the switch) , so one wouldn't need an additional ground block.
Matt

Alright, let's not start this again.....

There are multiple versions of the manuls around. One does say this, but upon further revsions, they took out the ground block replacement line.

YOU CANNOT USE THE SWITCHES IN PLACE OF A GROUND BLOCK:
Per one of TWO emails from Dish on this issues:

Dear Ryan,



Thank you for your recent email.



Hopefully this helps and gives you some information.







A multi-dish switch can NOT take the place of a ground block. The following instructions apply to a ground block only.

You may want to install the ground block onto the side of the building, or on some other sturdy structure near the satellite dish. Make sure that the location is stable, and that you fasten the ground block tightly to the surface. As stated in Article 820-40 of the National Electrical Code (NEC), locate the ground block as close as possible to the power entry ground.

Mount the ground block so that its connections are horizontal. This helps keep moisture from leaking into the block. Using the shortest path possible, run the coaxial cable(s) from the LNBF(s) to the input(s) on the ground block.

Put a drip loop in each cable to allow moisture to drip from the cable before it runs into the ground block.

Run the ground wire to the power entry ground of the building in accordance with the National Electrical Code (NEC) and all local electrical codes.
A ground wire must always be a single piece of wire. Never splice two wires together for a ground. Corrosion and weathering can lead to a poor connection at the splice, making the ground ineffective and dangerous. If you cut the ground wire too short, replace it with a single wire cut to the correct length.



Thank you,





AmandaXXXXXXX

Executive Office of Dish Network

Direct:720-XXX-XXXX

Email: XXXXXXXXX@echostar.com









-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan XXXX [mailto:rXXXXX@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:05 PM
To: CEO
Subject: Mult-switch approved?* amanda



I am seeing a conflict with local codes and the info inte DP34 manual. The manul states that the switch can take the place of a grounding block, is this true? Also what about the DPP44



Thanks

Ryan XXXXXX

 

[Matt]

Thanks a ton!
This place really is a great place to visit!
Matt

 

[SimpleSimon]

BTW, not that you are suggesting it, SimpleSimon and I went round on this and I cannot find the thread, but no biggie. The switches CANNOT be used in place of a grounding block.

Yes, they CAN be used, and WILL work just fine for grounding. It's just that due to legal considerations in some areas, E* can not continue to tell us to use them.

In your case, the most important consideration is where th switches are in the basement. IF they are mounted on the exterior wall - basically, within 2' of the cable entry point, then you can get away without ground blocks.

But it sounds like you already have them outside, so I recommend you keep using them.

 

[Parlyle]

Almost correct..........I think

I now have a quad grounding block in the basement. It's mounted on one of the floor joists with the coax coming from a DP Quad LNB, through PVC to an LB on the side of the house, up and into the basement, with a ground wire from the block, going to a ground rod outside. This ground rod is about 1.5 feet from the entry of our main electrical service, and not connected to the main ground of the house. I am proposing to replace the DP Quad LNB with a DP Twin and putting another dish up for 61.5, running that coax through PVC then putting the DP-34 in place of the quad ground block and using the same ground wire. I was to take that ground wire and put it on the DP-34. Now if I understand correctly, I don't have to ground this if it's within 2 feet of the service entry? Please advise. Thanks:
Lyle

 

[SatinKzo]

Yes, they CAN be used, and WILL work just fine for grounding. It's just that due to legal considerations in some areas, E* can not continue to tell us to use them.

In your case, the most important consideration is where th switches are in the basement. IF they are mounted on the exterior wall - basically, within 2' of the cable entry point, then you can get away without ground blocks.

But it sounds like you already have them outside, so I recommend you keep using them.

Yes, Simon is more correct on this than just the blanket No they can't be used, but you have to check your local codes to see if they are accepted. And from what I am understanding, they were up for UL approval (which makes them easier to get approved for grounding at all levels etc) but for some reason, they never finished the process or haven't even started it for the DPP44.

The facts remain from what SimpleSimon and I found out that there are at least two versions of the DPP44 manual floating around, one says ok for grounding even mentions UL approval and the other has all that info stripped out. I have now also seen a revision of the DP34 manual that also has the grounding block line removed. Basically, a Cover Yer A$$ on E* part as they didn't research every little code across the country.

Lyle,
You better check your local codes to make sure that the DP34 is approved in your area for that.

Can anyone answer why people are always looking to get rid of their ground blocks?


EDIT
I found the thread where we talked about this earlier. In it, I have posted comment and emails from my local building codes department and also the first email I got from CEO on the issue (it was the same person I talked to on the phone) IT also has the links to the differing DPP44 manuals. I can't find an electronic copy of the new DP34 manul though, that has the ground block line removed.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=70773

 

[SimpleSimon]

Can anyone answer why people are always looking to get rid of their ground blocks?

To eliminate the loss of an extra set of connections.

If you already have a switch (in the right place!), why have the extra failure point?

All switch chassis are conductive metal solidly attached to the shield side of the connectors. The ground lugs are part of the chassis. This is exactly what a ground block is.

 

[SatinKzo]

I wouldn't say solidly after seeing a few of the DP34's that are used. They haven't faired well in Michigan winters. Always interesting to see how a little frozen water cracks the absolute crap out of these things. Just an observation of the ones that get mounted outside. Dish should really rethink saying these things are weatherized.

I honestly would like to see some test results of signal loss due to grounding blocks. I just don't believe they cause that much signal loss. Then throw in a switch and I still don't see it. BUT.... I do not have to use a superdish for my locals and the state of the 105 bird (until the new one goes live) I could probably be pursuaded to believe there is a reason there as it seems even on a good day it is pretty crappy.

Again, simon, we agree to disagree.

 

[WhiteForMe]

Every install I have seen. Sat or cable, when the coax hit's your house, there's a ground block. Electricity is going to take the shortest path to ground, and you want that to be thru your switch???? Sounds crazy to me....

 

[hokiecb]

Every install I have seen. Sat or cable, when the coax hit's your house, there's a ground block. Electricity is going to take the shortest path to ground, and you want that to be thru your switch???? Sounds crazy to me....

I agree, definitely best to use a ground block. If enough static discharge or some higher electrical surge decides to use the grounding wire, you are not gonna want that going through the multi-dish switch. This has been the cause of death of many 34 switches.

 

[boy921]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if the dishes, cables, and switches are properly grounded as per required CODE, can't static/high voltage/electric current, still travel through the core/center wire because of the space/gap between the shielding and the core wire? How much current or wattage can we put into the cable, switch, etc. that is properly grounded and would cause damage? Even if the static is great enough, if traveling along the core wire, can't it manage to get past the grounds and cause damage? I was under the impression that grounding is a preventive to reduce static build-up which increases the potential for lightening strikes? To me it seems like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Parlyle]

I can't believe this site.......................

I know that we have been hashing the grounding question for some time now. I don't want to stop the responses, but here is a site that I came across that just blew my mind. I know that there will be some great comebacks after this one hits the cyber mind-blasters.

http://www.kramerfirm.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=8

Go to it!
Lyle :shocked

 

[SatinKzo]

SimpleSimon will know what I am talking about when I say "Those were NOT the gas grounding that I was talking about!" Geesh, kinda scary to think that this is probably more common than not.

 

[WhiteForMe]

I know that we have been hashing the grounding question for some time now. I don't want to stop the responses, but here is a site that I came across that just blew my mind. I know that there will be some great comebacks after this one hits the cyber mind-blasters.

http://www.kramerfirm.com/pictures/thumbnails.php?album=8

Go to it!
Lyle :shocked

That's a great site! some nice pic's. Can you say "your fired" But then again, I cant remember when my boss ever went out to QC a job. Had to foward that site to some of the guy's in the shop..... Kind of wish I had a picture of trouble I went out on, wasn't a grounding thing. Telephone trouble, traced it back and found a 25 pair cable - That's 50 individual wires, stripped and twisted together, fanned out like a big spider web, so that they wouldn't short out on each other! I couldnt believe my eye's There's some hacks out there...... maybe they just havent been to school.

.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if the dishes, cables, and switches are properly grounded as per required CODE, can't static/high voltage/electric current, still travel through the core/center wire because of the space/gap between the shielding and the core wire? How much current or wattage can we put into the cable, switch, etc. that is properly grounded and would cause damage? Even if the static is great enough, if traveling along the core wire, can't it manage to get past the grounds and cause damage? I was under the impression that grounding is a preventive to reduce static build-up which increases the potential for lightening strikes? To me it seems like comparing apples to oranges.

Exactly! The ONLY point of grounding a dish & cables is to PREVENT static build-up.

The electricians (the basic problem with this whole thing) want to think that the ground is preventing house current from nailing whoever is touching the wire.

OK, yeah, IF the receiver has a MAJOR internal meltdown, and is putting AC on the satellite input instead of the 18+VDC @ around 500ma, it'll keep you from getting a buzz. But look at the center conductor of an RG-6. Tell me how much current it can carry. Answer: maybe an amp. Much more than that and it'll fry like a fuse, solving the problem anyway. SO, if you put house current on the coax, it ain't gonna stay there long.

A side effect of a decent ground is IF you take a lightning hit, the grounding MIGHT "encourage" the strike to (mostly) stay outside - but don't count on it.

If you get any kind of current actually on the wire, it's coming inside - frying anything in it's path, as mentioned above. A ground block ahead of the switch is NOT going to help.

Think of it this way, if you try to push 3000psi down a garden hose, you're gonna have water EVERYWHERE. Well, before others jump on me, I know that voltage is electrical "pressure", not current, but the analogy holds.

Maybe I should say that if you try to stuff 3000 gallons of water down a garden hose in a fraction of a second. Either way - it's a mess.

 

[WhiteForMe]

Noticed the SD's are made out of plastic/ fiberglass? No way of grounding that dish. Also your lnbf's are isolated from the dish anyway. So you could just say that your IRD has a three prong plug on it, if you hook up your coax and plug in the IRD it's getting grounded that way. If your doing it your self, it dosent much matter, just make it work. If your working for some company, the story changes.

.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Noticed the SD's are made out of plastic/ fiberglass? No way of grounding that dish. Also your lnbf's are isolated from the dish anyway. So you could just say that your IRD has a three prong plug on it, if you hook up your coax and plug in the IRD it's getting grounded that way. If your doing it your self, it dosent much matter, just make it work. If your working for some company, the story changes.

.

Sorry, it's not quite that simple.

Yes, the LNBFs ARE isolated - which is why you have to ground the feeds AND the dish & mast. If you don't you risk a static discharge into the LNBF "eye". Yes, it's happened.

As for the plastic SD, well, haven't you ever built up static using a balloon and a cat? Neither of them is made out of conductive metal.

 

[Liquidforce88]

Simon,

I can tell you from experience that RG-6 will carry 120 volt house current quite well. Had a customers house that had a short between the hot and ground. When we plugged an 811 in it would send 120 down the coax to the dish. The way I found out was I had a person training with me who hooked up the receiver before I had finnished hooking up the dish. I went to cut the leads comming from the ground block (wires were already there as we were switching over a D* cx) to put new ends on them, and got a major shock.

It took three electricians to figure out what was wrong. They kept saying it was our equipment.