EPG not doing it for me

telstar_1

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I'm seeing a lot of program description malfunction, such as aired program not matching guide description. Many instances of mismatch between episode # as included at start of description and as stated in the (same) description footer. Now they seem to also be smushing 2 normally hour-length segments into a 2-hr block, perhaps carrying the same description as a separate 1-hr length segment. Occasionally a completely different show than listed, but primarily it seems they can't manage to maintain reliable and coherent program episodic info. ViP 622.
 

patmurphey

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The company that Dish buys the guide from can only post the information it receives from the media companies, You do know that businesses are having a hard time coping with this COVID-19 crisis, don't you?
 

mwdxer1

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The company that Dish buys the guide from can only post the information it receives from the media companies, You do know that businesses are having a hard time coping with this COVID-19 crisis, don't you?
That is true with most, but some guide companies do their job better than others. Like the free guide I get with the ReCast, accurate and guides on all channels and it goes out two weeks. Then the paid guides for Tivo and Tablo are accurate. Most guide companies do a much much better job than the one Dish uses. Their OTA guide on my 211k is almost useless. If I want to record a program from an OTA station, I generally need to use the manual timer.
 

osu1991

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That is true with most, but some guide companies do their job better than others. Like the free guide I get with the ReCast, accurate and guides on all channels and it goes out two weeks. Then the paid guides for Tivo and Tablo are accurate. Most guide companies do a much much better job than the one Dish uses. Their OTA guide on my 211k is almost useless. If I want to record a program from an OTA station, I generally need to use the manual timer.
Dish uses TiVo formerly Rovi for guide data.
 

telstar_1

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I don't do as much searching/DVRing on locals as I do on cable nets. Science ch. is particularly bad on some programs such as "Abandoned", while others such as ID don't seem to have issues.

I'm recalling back to a TiVO lawsuit against DiSH for infringement of a patented DVR function- forgetting what it was, maybe name-based recording or skipping ahead...maybe part of a settlement was licensing TiVO tech
 

TheKrell

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I'm recalling back to a TiVO lawsuit against DiSH for infringement of a patented DVR function- forgetting what it was, maybe name-based recording or skipping ahead...
I claim it was trick play such as skipping ahead. Even though Dish paid for it, they are apparently not using it. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I recall my 501 trick play was gorgeous before that tech was removed.
 

olds403

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I see a LOT of issues with the EPG, episode numbers, wrong show, old show showing up as new, etc... I also know that we have been complaining about this stuff for years, so I doubt it will ever be addressed.
 

crodrules

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I see a LOT of issues with the EPG, episode numbers, wrong show, old show showing up as new, etc... I also know that we have been complaining about this stuff for years, so I doubt it will ever be addressed.
At the very least, the OTA guide issue that mwdxer1 mentioned earlier should be addressed. If I am remembering correctly, mwdxer1 provided more details in another thread, and it sounds like a guide mapping issue after the repack, rather than the guide data itself being wrong. It is simply appearing on the wrong channel in the guide. Many of us have posted similar issues with the OTA guide data, in cases where two previously separate stations are now sharing the same frequency. The guide for the host station gets mapped to both stations in the guide. This is the kind of thing that Dish could (and should) fix, by changing the way they do the OTA guide mapping. Perhaps on the newer receivers, if Dish shifts to using 5G data to provide the OTA guide instead of using satellite-delivered guide data streams, this will finally fix the problem.
 

patmurphey

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I see a LOT of issues with the EPG, episode numbers, wrong show, old show showing up as new, etc... I also know that we have been complaining about this stuff for years, so I doubt it will ever be addressed.
Yeah, but the problems were minor compared to the COVID-19 mess. Patience!
 
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TheLip

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The guide data was reasonably accurate and as reliable as could be expected UNTIL Rovi took it over.

The transition was terrible because it was a somewhat unexpected transition. However, the accuracy and reliability haven't improved much since that transition either.
 
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Jim5506

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My TiVos seem to have better information on them than my Hopper 3/Joey 3.0 do.

My theory is that Dish does not correctly distribute the information they are sent.

Whatever metadata methodology they are using to link programming with local channel is inadequate.

The program info is associated with the RF frequency somehow and not the virtual sub-channel so it occasionally gets put in the wrong bucket.
 

crodrules

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My TiVos seem to have better information on them than my Hopper 3/Joey 3.0 do.

My theory is that Dish does not correctly distribute the information they are sent.

Whatever metadata methodology they are using to link programming with local channel is inadequate.

The program info is associated with the RF frequency somehow and not the virtual sub-channel so it occasionally gets put in the wrong bucket.
To be more precise, the guide stream is tied to the TSID (Transport Stream IDentification) being broadcast by the station. This is why when the station changes frequency due to a repack, the guide info still gets mapped to the station after you re-scan, without Dish needing to do anything to the way they map the guide data.

However, the problem comes when two stations start sharing the same frequency. The shared station uses the TSID of the host station for all of its streams, including the ones that were previously a separate station. This confuses the Dish receiver's guide mapping, since it was only set up to check the TSID and the subchannel number (the two digits after the dash) but not the virtual channel number before the dash. So, with a station broadcasting virtual channels 019-01 and 043-01 (as we have in the Cleveland, Ohio market) the guide data for the host station 019-01 will get mapped to both stations in the guide. The guide data for 043-01 is still being uplinked, but it would only be able to appear in the guide on a station with the TSID that 043-01 previously broadcast when it was still a separate channel. In my case, I lost the OTA signal from 043-01 when they started sharing on 019-01's frequency. So, I still have this channel scanned into my ViP receiver from before it was repacked. This means that I still get correct OTA guide information for 043-01, but I no longer receive the channel. Meanwhile, people who do still get the signal from this station after the repack would get the guide info for their sister station 019-01 on that channel.

The solution for this issue would obviously be to have the OTA guide mapping check the entire virtual channel number, rather than just the TSID and subchannel number. Even then, Dish would still have to update their database, to correctly reflect the new TSID for the now shared station. There can still be another problem if a station (for whatever reason) changes the TSID they broadcast to something that is not already in Dish's database. In that case, the link to the Dish-provided OTA guide data would be broken completely, with no guide data at all appearing on that OTA channel. This is apparently what happened to my local 068-01. As far as I know, Dish still uplinks the OTA guide for that channel, but the guide has not appeared on the OTA channel for many years.
 

DishSubLA

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My TiVos seem to have better information on them than my Hopper 3/Joey 3.0 do.

My theory is that Dish does not correctly distribute the information they are sent.

Whatever metadata methodology they are using to link programming with local channel is inadequate.

The program info is associated with the RF frequency somehow and not the virtual sub-channel so it occasionally gets put in the wrong bucket.
TiVo DVR's and Dish DVR's has EXACTLY the same guide metadata. TiVo uses its own metadata and also sells it to other MVPD's including Dish. I believe just about everybody who had Gracenote a few years ago immediately jumped ship to Rovi, who then bought TiVo. Unless things have changed, TiVo was providing metadata to almost ALL the big MVPD's. I can recall Scott stating that it was not Dish's plan to leave Gracenot for Rovi. I also recall that soon after Nielsen purcased Gracenote from Tribune, Nielsen announced plans to greatly increase the value of its newly acquired metadata business at Gracenote. Soon after, nearly all Gracenote customers mysteriously swithced to Rovi. I think Comcast may have stayed with Gracenote IIRC, I am not sure, but I do know all but ONE of the big MVPD's left Gracenote.

I believe Amazon may use Gracenote, and let us not forget that Gracenote was getting worse and worse and generated a great many complaints on this forum that were unprecidented, but Greacenote isn't necessarily good, it is just that TiVo is so BAD, it makes Gracenote look good.
 

DishSubLA

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I claim it was trick play such as skipping ahead. Even though Dish paid for it, they are apparently not using it. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I recall my 501 trick play was gorgeous before that tech was removed.
Yes, it was Trick-play and, maybe, TimeWarp (or was TimeWarp added only to the subequent parties/companies TiVo sued, everybody else who did not make a deal with them). Well, it was not removed from the DishPlayer (NOT referring to the Microsoft 7000 series) and DishPro models (those were the only offending DVR's cited by TiVo becaue the ViP's did not yet exist), but Dish did change the trick-play tech for the forthcoming ViP's before they were made available to subscribers as a solutino to further claims by TiVo.

However, Dish had donwloaded a "work-around" to the offending DVR's duirng the trial without notifying the trial judge. This was a clever tactict to drag out the trial and ultimately force TiVo to intoa whole NEW trial to determain if the work-around had also violated patents, as per an Appeals Court ruling on the mattter who also stated the trial judge was WRONG on his ruling regarding the Dish work-around. This forced TiVo into a settlement with Dish, which was much much better for Dish than paying damages as a result of the trial.

I think the resolution to prevent any claim of sofware propriety for future DVR's--the ViP's that were in development by then--was to use hardware to acheive trick-play, at least that is what one reputable poster to this forum stated at the time.

Also, if Dish were ruled to pay damages or lose the NEW trial and ruled to pay TiVo damages for the offending DVR's, Dish was ready with ViP's to be immeditely installed in all subscribers with the offending DVR's, which meant that there would be NO license payments to be paid beyond the damages (or the time it would take to repalce the offending DVR's with ViP's) because TiVo was also really banking that they could force Dish to pay roylaties for the continiued use of TiVo patened trick-play in all the DishPlayer--NOT Microsoft 7000 series-- and DishPro models, but Charlie was NOT going to pay the huge added cost to TiVo of keeping all those DishPlayer and DishPro "offending" models in use with new long-term licensing agreements that would have resulted in additional charges to Dish subscribers, as was the case with any other MVPD who offered TiVo as a DVR option.
 
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DishSubLA

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I don't do as much searching/DVRing on locals as I do on cable nets. Science ch. is particularly bad on some programs such as "Abandoned", while others such as ID don't seem to have issues.

I'm recalling back to a TiVO lawsuit against DiSH for infringement of a patented DVR function- forgetting what it was, maybe name-based recording or skipping ahead...maybe part of a settlement was licensing TiVO tech
The lawsuit was limited to trick-play functions and, possibly, TimeWarp. I'm only certain that TimeWarp was added to subsequent comapanies that TiVo sued, which was anyone who did not do a deal with them. There were 2 reason the jury sided with TiVo:

1. The mystery of the "dissapearing" TiVo DVR intentionally left behind at Dish/Echostar--hardly a act by a company protecting is patents, because if you don't act to protect your patents, you may lose rights to your patents.

2. TiVo spent a lot of money in the local economy by hiring local lawyers, buying several big meals from local establishemnts and even sponsering a pig in the local festival.

In the end a Federal Appeals court ruled that--for reasons I won't go into here in the interest of time (see my post above for those details)--the trial judge was WRONG on his ruling for the "work-around" Dish had downloaded. Further, the Appeals Court ruled that if TiVo wanted money from any of the offending DVR's (DishPlayer--not the Microsoft 7000 series--and DishPro models, but NOT any of the ViP DVR's because they did not exist at the time of TiVo's lawsuit), since the "work around" was downloaded to those offending DVR's, there would have to be a completely NEW trial to determain if the "work-around" offened the patents.

The only legal path for TiVo at that point was to go to appeal to the SCOTUS, but that takes time and SCOTUS likely would not hear the case. Faced with this situation, then TiVo CEO Tom Rogers stated that he ". . . did not want to wait for the Supreme Court," (TiVo was ready to go under financially at that point by now) and decided to settle with Dish with the suspeciously same terms that Gemstar/TV Guide settled with Dish that included chump change--for Dish, but life saving for TiVo--cash and in excange granting Dish lifetme license to all TiVo tech at the time, before the merge with Rovi. Echostar also granted TiVo liftetime rights to a few of its patents in exchange for dropping Echostars (Dish) counter-suit against TiVo.

The real evidence--the CODE--was never examined by the jury nor was it ever presented as central to the case. It was all about the DishPlayer 7000 (or 7100) being a mess, and then the 50X working well and the intentionally left behind TiVo DVR at Dish/Echostar that ended up being "lost."

Mind you, Broadcomm and 3rd parties had a big part in developing and coding the 50X series and they would have all have to be in the TiVo "rip-oiff" but that testimony of how they acheive trick-play without using TiVo patented tech is SLEEP inducing and esoteric techno-babble that is not nearly as interesting to a jury as the gossipy "missing DVR" and how the 50X worked more reliably than the 7000/7100, which MicroSoft made very difficult for Dish to get bugs fixed.

And lastly, CEO Tom Rogers--who initiated the tactic of suing EVERYBODY who would not sign a deal with TiVo--and Charlie Ergen were good friends from before this disagreement and remained friednds throughout and after the legal actions, with Ergen quipping after the wire of the first cash payment, "The next time Tom and I meet, I expect him to pay for lunch."
 
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crodrules

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...Soon after, nearly all Gracenote customers mysteriously swithced to Rovi. I think Comcast may have stayed with Gracenote IIRC, I am not sure, but I do know all but ONE of the big MVPD's left Gracenote.
...
If I remember correctly, there had been one big MVPD already using Rovi before this switch happened, and that MVPD flip-flopped to Gracenote at the same time that the competing MVPD's were switching the other way. I think it was Directv that switched to Gracenote. I remember Directv continuing to have different guide info on their receivers than Dish did after Dish made the switch to Rovi.
 

crodrules

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Could you guys keep the answers to a short answer. I have to adjust my glasses after every post.:coco
It was my fault. I made one long post, shortly after midnight, and it woke up DishSubLA and opened the door for even more long posts. I have to remember that DishSubLA is like a gremlin: Do not feed after midnight! :oldlaugh :biggrin
 

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