Experience with the Prof 7300 PC card

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pendragon

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 13, 2008
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One observation was that the FTA reception of these CBS channels was strikingly sharper and more brilliant than the over-the-air HD reception from the local CBS station. These channels were upconverted from 1080i to 1080p by the computer before sending it over the HDMI to the TV but I am not convinced that that was significant enough to yield that increased definition or sharpness. The 4:2:2 was likely responsible for the increased brilliance. According to DVBDream the incoming signal was 1920x1080 at 29.9fps. The Panasonic G10 identified the incoming HDMI as 1080p and the incoming OTA as 1080i.

The main reason these channels look better over FTA is CBS uplinks them at 35-40 Mbps, instead of less than 19.2 Mbps (max) via OTA. If your OTA station has subchannels, the OTA rate may be only 10-12 Mbps. The lower OTA rates require the MPEG-2 compressor to make significant compromises in the picture quality, which normally shows up as a softer picture/motion artifacts.
 

Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
Variation in quality of HD

The main reason these channels look better over FTA is CBS uplinks them at 35-40 Mbps, instead of less than 19.2 Mbps (max) via OTA. If your OTA station has subchannels, the OTA rate may be only 10-12 Mbps. The lower OTA rates require the MPEG-2 compressor to make significant compromises in the picture quality, which normally shows up as a softer picture/motion artifacts.

As stated the FTA CBS bit rate was about 32 - 36,000bps according to ProgDVB and the OTA CBS HD does have a FOX SD subchannel. Thanks for the heads-up on exactly what was going on. I was aware of a wide variation in bit rates on "HD" FTA channels but paid little attention, thinking HD was HD, whether FTA or OTA. Of course, H.264 compression requires a lower bit rate for the same "apparent" quality as compared to MPEG-2 due to its attention to the pace of change within the pic.

Since I am now having solid success with the 7300 in locking DVB-S2 signals with either H.264 or MPEG-2 compression I am still looking for the "7300 deficiencies" referenced by Zamar23 on 11-15-2009 03:38 AM as follows:

"Prof 7300 series was widely reported to have serious hardware deficiencies, manifested in particular in locking DVB-S2 signals."

There is one idiosyncrasy which I have noted, and that is when the x64 computer is restarted after the computer power supply was continually exposed to 120vac (i.e., not turning off the power supply switch on the rear of the case) then the FTA signal level would be nil in ProgDVB or DVBDream. If Windows was shut down and the power switch on the rear turned off for 20 minutes or so, and then restarted, a reasonable signal level would appear. Once a valid signal level is present it stays up indefinitely. I do not believe this occurred on x86 hardware where I first installed the card, thus it is likely a computer PCI hardware problem rather than related to the 7300 card. Work continues on this one since only the x64 hardware is fast enough for the higher bit rates.
 

Stephan1

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Oct 27, 2009
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Earth
Prof 7300 series was widely reported to have serious hardware deficiencies, manifested in particular in locking DVB-S2 signals.
Problems with the brains of these people. It is useless to them something to explain.
There are no problems with the hardware in Prof-7300. I wonder why they do not think over the phrase: "manifested in particular in locking DVB-S2"?

It is very simple. The new chips consume more current ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere"]Ampere - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Galvanometer_1890_drawing.png" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Galvanometer_1890_drawing.png/200px-Galvanometer_1890_drawing.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/2/2b/Galvanometer_1890_drawing.png/200px-Galvanometer_1890_drawing.png[/ame]). When Lock DVB-S2 need more Amperes than for lock DVB-S. Therefore users have a problem with the no qualitative motherboard.

Prof-7300 receives power from the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_PCI"]Conventional PCI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:32-bit_PCI_card.JPG" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/32-bit_PCI_card.JPG/200px-32-bit_PCI_card.JPG"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/6/62/32-bit_PCI_card.JPG/200px-32-bit_PCI_card.JPG[/ame]. Prof-7300 is powered from 5V pin and 3.3V pin.
Maximum current consumption for Prof-7300 PCI is 5V - 3.3A (Max), 3.3V - 2.6A (Max) - for DVB-S2 (for DVB-S need less).

If the user uses a cheap motherboard, and this motherboard does not meet the standard PCI, and this motherboard can not be used to receive satellite signal in DVB-S2. The PCI bus does not provide the necessary amount of current, which is necessary for lock DVB-S2.

Users with head and quality motherboard do not have any problems with Lock DVB-S2.

P.S.
We sold approximately 10,000 units Prof-7300. Almost all users have everything works fine. But there are several users with failed motherboards, who write negative on the Internet. We have noticed that if the user everything is fine, he is silent. If he has problems, you know about this whole internet.

P.P.S.
Prof-7301 and Prof-8000 are also requirements for the current. This is the most advanced chips. The chips have a higher current consumption than it was on older DVB-S cards, such as, SkyStar2 or TechnoTrend-1401. Therefore, a fraction of users will have problems with Locke DVB-S2. Their motherboard will not provide the necessary amount of current.

P.P.P.S.
Make external power supply for Prof we do not plan to do.

We have seen that done DVBWorld external power for PCIe, to make the protection of fools who write: "serious hardware deficiencies, manifested in particular in locking DVB-S2 signals".

Sometimes it's really easier to make external power, than to hear the claim: "serious hardware deficiencies".
 
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zamar23

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 5, 2009
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Mid West
If you claim to represent Prof, smart manufacturers make devices that "just work", instead of calling customers who paid them for lemons to be fools. They indeed felt fooled after discovering this stuff simply doesn't do, what was advertised it will do. And it was designed precisely for the market where such problems and low card ratings were reported. So, what kind of fools designed these cards only to blame customers on every forum? :) May be you need to leave your culture in the closet, if you want to post in North American forums?
 
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Comptech

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 26, 2006
3,040
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Travelers Rest SC
If you claim to represent Prof, smart manufacturers make devices that "just work", instead of calling customers who paid them for lemons to be fools. They indeed felt fooled after discovering this stuff simply doesn't do, what was advertised it will do. And it was designed precisely for the market where such problems and low card ratings were reported. So, what kind of fools designed these cards only to blame customers on every forum? :) May be you need to leave your culture in the closet, if you want to post in North American forums?
If you are using drugs and posting in this forum you should at least offer to share them! I swapped my TT3200 for a Prof7301 this week and there is no comparison. Signals are much higher,channel changes faster and scans faster.No problems at all using DVBViewer and Windows7 64 Bit.:D
 

zamar23

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 5, 2009
1,204
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Comptech

The ratings on the above site are historical in nature. In part, they reflect purchasing dynamics of 2-3 generations of sat cards over some time period in a particular market. I found that thread while doing some research on various sat cards presently on the market. That forum contains a lot of details about issues consumers experienced over time with various cards, and is certainly very helpful for card manufacturers, since the sat cards in general are a lot more popular over there. You can browse that forum using Google Translate to learn more. I usually do not participate in any such ratings, since most products have deficiencies that can often be addressed by working with the manufacturer, so bashing any product will only truncate choice on the market. ;)

As to your comparison, these products are of different generations, and on top there were some inaccuracies reported in interpreting and reflecting actual signal levels by various sat software packages, and their interaction with card drivers while measuring signal levels. It would be more reasonable to compare Prof-7301 with TT S2-1600. This post contains a Table of Chipsets used in some sat cards currently on the market around the world. Of course, any such info is aging fast, as new models are introduced. :)

I don't think any manufacturer's rep should be allowed to call their customers fools, while collecting money from them and posting misleading self-serving self-prepared "reviews" all over the web, while hiding essential minimal system requirement info that, if timely disclosed, would significantly affect their sales on the market where the rating above was posted. Unless, of course, they're prepared to defend such customer definitions and their actions in courts. In short, it seems to me this guy is used to treat customers like dirt, and tries to bring his lack of customer care and honest business culture to NA market. It's hard to not notice this, and I can't find any other company Rep's citation on this or any other NA forum calling customers fools. Look at Newegg forum where people of various backgrounds report all kind of product experiences, and any Rep saying such BS would be expelled immediately and their products dropped. Having said this, present Prof sat cards may be quite competitive on the market. Hope, there will be no warranty and replacement related issues, and reported driver bugs will be fixed fast, as DVB Word usually does. ;)
 
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Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
Significance of 7300 "relative stability"

Grimgnaw

.... Prof 7300 series was widely reported to have serious hardware deficiencies, manifested in particular in locking DVB-S2 signals. ....

The card (7300, 7301, etc) front end "sensitivity" (s/n and stability) is only one piece of the puzzle. It is an intermediate stage in the signal path. A more vunerable part is the sensitivity of the front end of the system, i.e., the lnb quality and dish size. The dish size is not easy to change but the lnb is. I recently upgraded my 0.6dB s/n, 500KHz stability Ku lnb to a PLL 0.8dB, 25KHz unit. The 65% signal level transponders went to 85%.

The point I would argue is that the improvement between the most "sensitive" card available and the 7300 would be insignificant in effect compared to that of improvements in the front end of the total signal path. In this case I actually degraded my system s/n quality, but the improvement in stability provided the reward. Stabilizing up front negates the need for [heavy duty] stabilizing later (at the card).

I had experienced this problem with my c-band HBO signals where the 922 front end was breaking lock every few minutes until I switched in a Norsat 3220 PLL c-band lnb (discussed in another thread of Satellite Guys).

Only on one channel (OETA on AMC 21) did I ever see the 7300 drop lock and regain it alternately (prior to the upgrade). By the way, the NJR2535S lnb was less than $30 (incl ship) on Ebay, or about one-tenth of a typical new price.
 
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updatelee

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jul 22, 2006
1,604
111
CFB Edmonton
qpsk = Quadrature phase-shift keying

Quadrature meaning 4

therfore qpsk = 4psk
therfore 16qpsk doesnt make any sense. I assume you mean 16apsk.

The tuner datasheet posted on prof tuners website does not specify 16apsk support.

do you actually have a need for 16apsk support ?
 

Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
Hi
7300 is better or 7301 ?
8000 receive 16Qpsk?

I have seen no definitive information comparing the signal to noise or stability of the Prof 7300 and 7301 cards although likely such exists. My experience with the 7300 indicates it has a far better front end than my Pansat 9200hd. As a comparison using the AK-1 channel on satellite AMC-8 (139W) the signal level for the 7300 is 73% while the Pansat is 68%. The Quality (for that channel) for the 7300 is 52% while that of the Pansat is 25%. The picture provided by the 7300 is solid while that of the Pansat is usually digital noise. My 7300 card is slaved to the Pansat, which in turn are signal split with a Motorola 922.
 

pendragon

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 13, 2008
1,100
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Grimgnaw - I'm not casting any doubt on your overall assessment of the Prof 7300 vs. Pansat 9200HD. But you cannot compare signal levels and quality between two different units. The scales are completely arbitrary for each and are in no way calibrated to indicate the same level of reception for the same numerical value.

I do not have a 7300, but the key component in it is the CX24116 demod. It happens to be the same chip used in the previous generation DVB World 2104, which I do have. I also have a Pansat 9200HD (with the newer DVB-S2 plus card) and the Prof 7301 and 7500. Interestingly, the 9200HD S2+ card and the 7301 and 7500 all use the STV0903 demod. The Pansat only uses this demod for S2 reception and S/S2 scanning (which also picks up plain S); the 9200HD has a fairly old demod for DVB-S reception and S-only scanning.

A comparison of sensitivity and ability to lock difficult signals is very easy. My DVB World 2104 clearly outperforms my 9200HD for DVB-S reception. As the 2104 demod is the same as in the Prof 7300, it is not surprising that you are seeing the same difference. However the Prof 7301 is much better than the 2104 for DVB-S or DVB-S2 reception. Because the 9200HD S2+ card has the same demod as the 7301, it's also not surprising that I see little difference in performance between the 9200HD and 7301 for DVB-S2 reception. The previous S2 add-on card (no plus) for the 9200HD was not very good at all and ranked behind the 2104, and presumably the 7300.
 

Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
pendragon - While the basis of those figures likely differs between the Pansat and the 7300 (and cannot be compared precisely ) each set does indicate their builder's confidence in what is seen and what is derived from the signal. The relatively small difference in level correlates with the fact they are provided the same signal and the gross difference in the Quality measure (positively) correlates with the fact that the Pansat produced digital noise while the 7300 had a solid pictures for the indicated satellite. Of course, from what you said, the fact that these are "S" signals, only implies the 7300 has a better front end than the Pansat original ("S") front end.

Also now, based on what you said, the Pansat 9200hd with the + card (using the STV0903) should be able to produce a picture on some marginal "S2" channels where the 7300 cannot. By gradually moving the dish off of the optimal direction one should be able to test this thesis for a comparison of "S2" demodulation capabilities. The CBS channels on Galaxy 28 may be one reasonable target.
 

pendragon

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 13, 2008
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Grimgnaw - maybe I'm just a cynic, but I wonder if some of the receiver vendors or PC software driver developers adjust their SQ percentage scales to make the unsuspecting believe their new products are better than the prior generation. In most cases where I've seen the code, these scales are monotonically related to CNR, and not to a BER threshold or something similar that could take into account the overall quality of the lock, normalized for the signal particulars (CNR, SR, bits per symbol, FEC, etc.).

When I was testing the Prof 7301/7500 last fall against my other PC tuners, I did some spot checks on my Pansat 9200HD S2+ card with S2 signals. It seemed to lock about the same as the Profs I was testing. I also compared the S2+ card blindscanning against the code I was writing for the 7301/7500. They were fairly similar, although I believe the S2+ card can be beat with better software.
 

Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
Comparison of the 7300 and 7301 "front ends"

First, I must mention that the Prof 7301 and the DVB-S2+ upgrade for the Pansat 9200hd have a common "front end" demod chip (credits are below). Thus, this comparison is actually between a Prof 7300 and the Panast 9200hd with its DVB-S2+ upgrade.

The first “front end” comparison of the Pansat 9200hd (wi the S2+) and the Prof 7300 was with NBC Central, DVB-S2 (H.264) on AMC18 (105W) TP 3780 H SR 30k. The results of this test was not what I expected in that the Pansat could not even provide a stable smooth picture even when the dish was well aligned. It had a stutter whereas the Prof 7300 using the DivX H264 codec was well behaved. This fault was likely a function of the Pansat codec and not a function of signal strength.

The second front end comparison of the Pansat 9200hd (wi the S2+) and the Prof 7300 was with Universal Sports, DVB-S2 (MPEG) also on AMC18 (105W) TP 3780 H SR 30k. To degrade the signal the polarity of the feedhorn was changed from the horizontal position by 5 degree increments and at 20 deg both pictures froze and at 10 deg both were well behaved. At 15 degrees off of horizontal the Pansat continued to be smooth while the Prof 7300 progressed in discrete increments. A coarse MPG of this is at the following link where the Pansat is shown on a CRT on the right side and the 7300 on the left on a lcd:

UnivSportMPEGComparison

You may have to download this file to your computer for playing if your internet download speed is insufficient to provide a smooth picture on the right side.

The above is, as espoused by pendragon in an earlier post and also alluded to by zamar23, evidence that the STV0903 demod (used on the Pansat S2+ addon and the Prof 7301) constitutes a better “front end” than the CX24116 which is used on the 7300. Thanks to pendragon for, in effect, alerting me to the fact that this chip was in my Pansat S2+ unit and, in effect, just waiting to be compared with my 7300.

Of course, the degree of improvement provided by this "intermediate stage" in the signal chain is, as I mentioned earlier, likely small compared to that of substituting a phase lock loop lnb for the DRO type. Nevertheless it is real unless someone can show that the implementation of this chip in the S2+ upgrade is better than in the 7301.
 

Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
I need a list of mobo that works FINE with 730x Prof card.A list of mobo's that we should avoid it'll be great too
What kind of CPU requires 730x card?

BestReards
DoktorOfSat

I would suggest any cpu found on the following chart:
PassMark Intel vs AMD CPU Benchmarks - High End

After you choose a cpu then any motherboard that can handle it will do the trick with a couple Gigs of ram. My cpu has just fallen off the bottom of that chart in the last month but is still quite sufficient.

The most effort will be in the acquisition and installation of video and audio codecs. Google search for the following names for such:
DivX (excellent one for H.264)
Etymonix (excellent for 4:2:2)
Cyberlink
Intervideo
Dscaler
Elecard
ffdshow
Blaze

Many are free.

One thing you must realize is that the use of a DVB tuner card requires considerably more effort in getting established than using a set top box but they are certainly far more versatile and less costly (if you ignore the cost of the computer). The one thing you still need a set top box for is blind scanning.
 
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pendragon

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 13, 2008
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The STV0903 demod in the 7301/7500/S2+ card also does better on plain DVB-S compared to the CX24116. Unfortunately the Pansat 9200HD uses its built-in DVB-S demod for DVB-S signals so one cannot take much advantage of this fact. However the S2+ demod is used for blindscanning in "S2 mode", which finds both S and S2 signals.

The improvement offered by the newer generation demods is significantly more than switching from a DRO to a PLL LNB. This last statement does depend on comparing good quality DRO LNBs. A Norsat 8115 (DRO) should only do a tiny fraction of a dB worse than a Norsat 3115 (PLL) on high-rate DVB-S2 8PSK signals. The PLL advantage would be more for 16PSK and 32PSK, but we're not there yet.
 

Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
Unfortunately the Pansat 9200HD uses its built-in DVB-S demod for DVB-S signals so one cannot take much advantage of this fact.



On the contrary, one can use the DVB-S2+ tuner (on a Pansat 9200hd) for the DVB-S signals. To demonstrate this one only needs to set up a second transponder identical to the one used for a given DBV-S signal and change only the tuner to be used in that second TP.

For instance, push MENU, INSTALLATION, SATELLITE SETUP, EDIT TP/SATELLITE, choose the satellite of interest, EDIT TP, NEW, and create a transponder identical in every respect to one used for the DVB-S signal TP and alter only the TUNER TYPE to DVB-S2.

Then push MENU, INSTALLATION, SATELLITE SETUP, ADVANCED & TP SCAN where you can switch back and forth between those two transponders to see the change in the QUALITY between the different tuners.

Of course, you need to have the antenna and polarity pointed at the satellite of interest and it has to be a live transponder.
 

pendragon

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 13, 2008
1,100
63
Great observation. Based on your tests it seems Pansat set up the STV0903 demod to lock to to anything close in frequency, and perhaps SR. Very nice, although it does prevent one from deducing the actual signal parameters like was possible in the past.
 

Grimgnaw

SatelliteGuys Family
Jan 3, 2008
56
4
Central California
[FONT=&quot]It would be neat if Pansat had included an added switch to separate the hardware front-end choice from the data stream software choice to provide an “S” picture, not that it would normally be any different. Well, the “level” comparisons were interesting. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I did a Pansat 9200hd-S2+ blind scan of AMC 9 (83W) two days ago and it missed the feed at 12180 V 28k DVB-S while getting others nearby. Using the (posted) values I then did a Pansat TP scan and it did pop in. That was a dose of reality.[/FONT]
 
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