In a Search for the Definition of HD..

goaliebob99

SatelliteGuys Master
Supporting Founder
Aug 5, 2004
14,486
520
-.-. .... .. -.-. .- --. ---
Guys I did some research on HD formats and digital formats as per required for a term paper im writing for class

I first stopped at the library of congress and looked up Bill S 1932 Subtitle D (the digital transition act) This is the new one passed on DEC20th05

I found some interesting things...

Under SEC. 3410. ADDITIONAL PROVISIONS

Section C
number 3.

`(3) MULTIPLE FORMATS PERMITTED- A satellite carrier may offer the primary video stream and program-related material of an eligible requesting station in any analog or digital format or formats, whether or not doing so requires conversion from the format transmitted by that eligible requesting station, so long as--
`(A) the satellite carrier offers the primary video stream and program-related material in the converted analog or digital format or formats without material degradation; and
`(B) also offers the primary video stream and program-related material in the manner or manners required by this subsection.


So Is dish Breaking the LAW?

Further more reading I found this…


`(8) DEFINITION OF STANDARD-DEFINITION FORMAT- For purposes of this subsection, a stream shall be in standard definition digital format if such stream meets the criteria for such format as specified in the standard recognized by the Commission in section 73.682 of its rules (47 CFR 73.682) or a successor regulation

Witch lead me to… no where.. So further more research lead me to..


http://www.cinemasource.com/articles/hist_politics_dtv.pdf

upon reading this nicely put together history of DTV I found this..


Formation of the Grand Alliance
Although the FCC had said in the spring of 1990 that it
would determine whether all-digital technology was
feasible for a terrestrial HDTV transmission standard, most
observers viewed that technology as being many years in
the future. Later the same year, however, General
Instrument became the first proponent to announce an alldigital
system. Later, all-digital systems were announced
by MIT, the Philips-Thomson-Sarnoff consortium, and
Zenith-AT&T.
The FCC anticipated the need for interoperability of the
HDTV standard with other media. Initially, the focus was
on interoperability with cable television and satellite
delivery; both were crucial to any broadcast standard. But
the value of interoperability with computer and
telecommunications applications became increasingly
apparent with the advent of all-digital systems.
Proponents later incorporated packetized transmission,
headers and descriptors, and composite-coded surround
sound in their subsystems. (The Philips-Thomson-Sarnoff
consortium was the first to do so.) These features
maximized the interoperability of HDTV with computer and
telecommunications systems. The introduction of all-digital
systems had made such interoperability a reality.
The all-digital systems set the stage for another important
AT&T; and one proposed by Sarnoff, Philips, and
Thomson. The Advisory Committee further decided that
although all of the digital systems provided impressive
results, no single system could be proposed to the FCC
as the U.S. HDTV standard at that time. The committee
ordered a round of supplementary tests to evaluate
improvements to the individual systems.
At its February 1993 meeting, the Advisory Committee
also adopted a resolution encouraging the digital HDTV
groups to try to find a way to merge the four remaining alldigital
systems. The committee recognized the merits of
being able to combine the best features of those systems
into a single “best of the best” system. With this
encouragement, negotiations between the parties heated
up, and on May 24, the seven companies involved
announced formation of the Digital HDTV Grand Alliance.
By the spring of 1994, significant progress had been made
toward the final HDTV system proposal. Teams of
engineers and researchers had finished building the
subsystems that would be integrated into the complete
HDTV prototype system for testing later in the year. The
subsystems—scanning formats, digital video compression,
packetized data, audio, and modulation—all had been
approved by the ACATS. Key features and specifications
for the system included:
Support of two fundamental arrays of pixels (picture
elements): 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720. Each of these
pixel formats supported a wide-screen 16:9 aspect ratio
and square pixels, important for computer interoperability.
Frame rates of 60, 30, and 24 Hz were supported, yielding
a total of six different possible scanning formats—two
different pixel arrays, each having three frame rates. The
60 and 30 Hz frame rates were important for video source
material and 24 Hz for film. A key feature of the system
was the Grand Alliance’s commitment to using progressive
scanning, also widely used in computer displays.
Entertainment television traditionally had used interlaced
scanning, which was efficient but subject to various
unwanted artifacts. Of the six video formats, progressive
scanning was used in all three 720-line formats and in the
30 and 24 Hz 1080-line formats. The sixth video format
was a 60 Hz 1080-line scheme. It was neither technically
or economically feasible to initially provide this as a
progressive format, although it was a longer-term goal for
the Grand Alliance. The 1080-line, 60-Hz format was
handled in the initial standard by using interlaced rather
than progressive scanning.


So that lead me to this…

http://www.sbca.com/hdtv_index.asp

Satellite Broadcasting and Communications Association (SBCA)


On there page… Dish network is a partner to them and so is Directv.. I found

What makes HDTV better?
• Regular TV broadcasts have approximately 330 lines of resolution.
- vcr’s have about 240 lines of resolution
- DVD’s have a higher resolution usually between 400 and 480
• HDTV has up to 1080 lines of resolution
• Standard televisions have a 4 x 3 aspect ratio (4 units wide by 3 units high)
• HDTV is broadcast in a 16 x 9 format similar to movies
• The higher aspect ratio produces a more in depth and intense viewing experience
• HD broadcasts contain more information that standard television signals
• Along with the enhanced picture quality the HD broadcast also deliver digital sound. Some programs take it a step further and broadcast in Dolby ® Digital Surround Sound.
• There are 2 HDTV formats 1080 and 720 but there are few discernable differences. Click here to learn more about HDTV (Note * requires high speed internet connection)



And that’s where I stopped..


What do you guys think so far? Am I on a right path or am I just totally wrong and off ??
 
Watch the video on the link that is HDTV!!!! it might just intrest you :) HDTV

Also my thoughs on

`(3) MULTIPLE FORMATS PERMITTED- A satellite carrier may offer the primary video stream and program-related material of an eligible requesting station in any analog or digital format or formats, whether or not doing so requires conversion from the format transmitted by that eligible requesting station, so long as--
`(A) the satellite carrier offers the primary video stream and program-related material in the converted analog or digital format or formats without material degradation; and
`(B) also offers the primary video stream and program-related material in the manner or manners required by this subsection.


So Is dish Breaking the LAW?

My thoughs is if the digital station (NBC, CBS) if there transmitting there digital signal in 1920 * 1080 I dish has an obligation under the law to give us 1920 * 1080I under this ruleing so infact both Dish Network And Directv is breaking the law and could warrent a class action lawsute from its coustomers. What do you think? Im just providing facts and am no way applying that There is or will be in the future one :)
 
Last edited:
Good job. I think the issue revolves around "without material degradation" clause. Dish can make a case that for the vast majority of HDTV sets, 1280x1080i does not result in material degradation.
 
rdinkel said:
Good job. I think the issue revolves around "without material degradation" clause. Dish can make a case that for the vast majority of HDTV sets, 1280x1080i does not result in material degradation.

yes but for the tv sets that do 1920 * 1080I there is a material degradation and its noticable :)
 
I really hope that someone will find a way to prove that they can't label it as HD if it's not 1920x1080i or 1280x720p.

Furthermore, my plasma's native res is 1366x768, and I can easily see the difference between HD and HD-Lite.
 
Note that the SBCA is a useless bunch whose total objective is to take money from installers in order to issue certificates that say you're qualified to install dishes. :cool:
 
Dish and DirecTV may actually be in violation of the law for their SD rebroadcasting of local networks, considering how compressed they are. There is noticeable, material degradation of signal compared to OTA 480i.

By down converting and compressing HD feed from the networks, they are taking that violation 1 step further.

But it is now becoming crystal clear that both Dish and DirecTV do not actually provide HDTV on very many channels at all, and that they are advertising, selling and charging extra for HDTV but not offering, we should find the most consumer friendly state and contact a high powered law firm within that state.

In other words: Lucy?! You got some splainin' to do...
 
goaliebob99 said:
Watch the video on the link that is HDTV!!!! it might just intrest you :) HDTV

Also my thoughs on

`(3) MULTIPLE FORMATS PERMITTED- A satellite carrier may offer the primary video stream and program-related material of an eligible requesting station in any analog or digital format or formats, whether or not doing so requires conversion from the format transmitted by that eligible requesting station, so long as--
`(A) the satellite carrier offers the primary video stream and program-related material in the converted analog or digital format or formats without material degradation; and
`(B) also offers the primary video stream and program-related material in the manner or manners required by this subsection.


So Is dish Breaking the LAW?

My thoughs is if the digital station (NBC, CBS) if there transmitting there digital signal in 1920 * 1080 I dish has an obligation under the law to give us 1920 * 1080I under this ruleing so infact both Dish Network And Directv is breaking the law and could warrent a class action lawsute from its coustomers. What do you think? Im just providing facts and am no way applying that There is or will be in the future one :)

Yes, it would seem that their only option is to choose 1080i or 720p, as they are considered "interchangeable" even if some can tell the difference. Further, it does not seem that they have the right to apply the heavy compression to these channels that they do. They may use MPEG2 or MPEG4, but only at such compression levels that do not have a negative impact. Bitrates way higher than what they use now.

The MPEG2 technology was such that it limited this ability, but the point of MPEG4 was to be able to provide a higher quality signal in the same bandwidth.

Seems Dish and DirecTV are doing the same thing that the networks want to do, which is provide more, lower quality streams in the same bandwidth. This was NOT the purpose of HDTV, and if this trend continues, the consumers will have wasted billions of dollars on a broken promise.
 
Have to be careful not to confuse Digital TV and High Definition TV. While related they are different. I think the quotes above from the "diital transition act" are in reference to Digital TV. The thing to look for would be an authoritative definition of High Definition TV. Some of what I have seen only specifies vertical resolution, 1080 or 720.
 
Can they call it HDTV?

Sorry about another "HD-Lite" thread, but I was hoping this could be a bit more constructive than I've seen so far.

As far as I know, the dbs and cable cos. can send any resolution format they wish as long as it complies with their agreements with the providers. The issue may be a bit stickier with local broadcasters and "must carry", they may be required to deliver the signals unaltered according to the FCC.

As consumers, we basically vote with our checkbooks--talk of a "class action lawsuit" is laughable at this point. However, our contracts with the dbs and cable cos. do imply that they'll deliver what they promise.

So the question is do they promise to deliver HD and is what they're giving us a fulfillment of that promise?

I've done some searching around and the best I could come by at this point is FIRST REPORT AND ORDER AND FURTHER NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE RULEMAKING.

In paragraph 71 they describe a distinction between SDTV and HDTV, although the definition is not bound in the document. It does footnote the definitions (#204):
The Executive Committee of the Advanced Television Systems Committee has approved for release the following statement regarding the identification of the HDTV and SDTV transmission formats within the ATSC Digital Television Standard: "There are six video formats in the ATSC DTV standard which are High Definition. They are the 1080 line by 1920 pixel formats at all picture rates (24, 30 and 60 pictures per second), and the 720 line by 1280 pixel formats at these same picture rates. All of these formats have a 16:9 aspect ratio.
I've been unable to find any further documentation that would change this definition.

I would think that given these definitions, the "HD-Lite" being talked about cannot be branded, described or otherwise marketed as high definition. Perhaps the FCC would take an interest in this, I don't know.

But I will say that I have sent an e-mail regarding this subject to the contacts listed on the How to Contact the FCC page.

-sc
 
FYI--feel free to send your own message

Sent to: fccinfo@fcc.gov, KJMWEB@fcc.gov, Michael.Copps@fcc.gov, Jonathan.Adelstein@fcc.gov, Deborah.Tate@fcc.gov

Subject: Dish Network misrepresenting HDTV delivery

A Jan 5, 2006 press release from the 2006 International CES for Dish Network announces a rollout of seven new HDTV channels and a new DishHD package offering.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060105/20060105005991.html?.v=1


Of these seven new channels, only ESPN2-HD will be delivered in an HDTV format defined in FCC 01-22 released January 23, 2001, FIRST REPORT AND ORDER AND FURTHER NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE RULEMAKING, paragraph 71 (and footnote 204).
http://ftp.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.pdf

Dish Network/EchoStar plans on delivering these new channels in a lower resolution (1280 by 1080i instead of 1920 by 1080i) but still label and sell it as HDTV.

As a Dish Network customer, I am disturbed this practice is allowed and believe they should be honest in their presentation of these new channels. They are NOT high definition.

Thank you,
[name and phone number here]
 
scottrell, since your thread is about HD definition, I hope you don't mind if I combine it with another one on the same topic?
 
I wrote to them and here is what I said

My name is Brian and I have a couple questions regarding HDTV. My first question is are DBS and cable companies allowed to advertise HD channels if they are not really HD? My next question is if they are not allowed to advertise HD when it really isn't, can legal action be taking to have them readdress the issue? The reason I'm asking this is because I'm with Dish Network and they are advertising HD but they are really HD-Lite. If I'm correct the meaning of HD is 1280x720p and 1920x1080i and not 1280x1080i. I'm trying to find this out as many people are being deprived of "True HD" and I think the FCC needs to really look into this more. I really hope you can take some interest in this.
 
Ilya said:
scottrell, since your thread is about HD definition, I hope you don't mind if I combine it with another one on the same topic?
I'm going to sue, sue, sue!!! And let's class action it, the five people that read my orginal post are now disenfranchised!!!! Who's with me??!!!!:p

-sc
 
Here's what Dish's web site says their HD is...
 

Attachments

  • dish.jpg
    dish.jpg
    45.3 KB · Views: 195
DJ Rob said:
Here's what Dish's web site says their HD is...

Now that's something of value. I bet we see that definition vanish.

Something along the sames lines to investigate would be the aspect ratio. Pretty much everything I have seen says HD is 16:9. 1280x1080 is not 16:9 unless you stretch it (and use non-square pixels). Is that allowed?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 0, Members: 0, Guests: 0)

Who Read This Thread (Total Members: 1)