Installation Woes

[RoswellGA]

Well, my local installers have cancelled a 3rd installation without notifying me. I am crafting the following email to send to the CEO and would like your feedback before pulling the trigger:

Dear Sir:

I am writing to let you know of the treatment offered to potential customers in the Roswell, GA area. I am interested in the HD Gold package possibly upgrading to Platinum at a later date.

I had my original appointment on July 26, 2006. The technician that came out said that I would need to cut about 20' off of the top of the trees starting in an arch from due West to due South in order to get the necessary signals. I pointed out to him that I already had visibility to the 61.5 satellite; because the dish was still in place pointing at that satellite. I am a former Voom customer. He said that Echostar was in the process of decommissioning that satellite and that having visibility to it didn't matter.

I also pointed out that I had an OTA antenna and that if necessary, I could get my locals that way. That only leaves getting visibility to 110 and 119 in order to become a Dish Network customer. He said it wasn't possible and left.

I did some trimming of overhanging branches to improve my line of sights for 119 and 129 which are the most problematic and scheduled another appointment for 8/12. I received a verification call on 8/11 and I indicated that I did want an installation. My appointment was from Noon to 5pm. I waited all afternoon and finally at 4:45 I called to ask where the technician was. I was informed that my installation had been cancelled. I was not notified it had been cancelled and only found out by calling Customer Service. At the time I was on with Customer Service, I rescheduled the installation for the morning of 8/26 from 9 to 12.

This morning I called to confirm the appointment because of the events of 8/12 and I had not received a confirmation call. I was informed that the installation had been cancelled and not to reschedule any installations at this location because there is no line of sight. This was again done without informing me.

I want to emphasize that, to my knowledge, no one has been out to view my situation since the initial technician.

The following are my look angles to each satellite:

Look Angles
Satellite Elevation Azimuth Skew
61.5 43.6 143.0 -29.9
110 41.9 220.7 32.7
119 35.1 231.1 40.2
129 28.5 240.5 46.2



My Lat 34.0032
My Long -84.3122


As I stated earlier, I know that I have visibility to 61.5. I also have visibility to 110 without a doubt. For 119 and 129 I am cutting it close but have visibility to both with the trimming I have done. Using my own inclinometer I have visibility down to 25 degrees looking at 129 at one location and to about 30 degrees at 119 in another location.

I would like the courtesy of at least getting another technician out here to actually survey my site for possible installation. If the angles are close, then it seems the effort of putting a dish at the location and seeing what kind of signals are received wouldn't be too much to ask.

It would seem to me in this highly competitive environment Dish Network would be doing anything reasonably possible to get signal to a customer. However, my experience seems to indicate that Dish Network's attitude is that if it is not easy, don't bother.

Sincerely,

 

[digiblur]

The tech lied... 61.5 isn't being decomissioned. He just didn't want to put up 2 dishes. I'm sure you already know this but 61.5 is a much better choice for signal strength over 129. Unless of course you want a set of locals that are only on 129.

 

[hobojoe]

rumers of sky angel buying 61.5. i have no idea if this could be true????

 

[riffjim4069]

I was recently told the Washington DC HD locals were going to be moved off of 61.5 (Rainbow-1/Echostar-12) in the near future by a a local yutz retailer, I didn't give it a second thought. However, on Friday I was told the same thing by a very reputable local retailer. Not that I doubt him, but I'm sure we would have heard something about it right here at SatGuys. Anyway, it appears that E* is telling at least a handful, or more, retailers that HD will be moving off of 61.5. Isn't E* going to launch EchoStar-11 early next year? If so, at what orbital location?

Sorry to hijack the thread...

Roswell, good letter...I hope you get your installation resolved!

 

[digiblur]

I was recently told the Washington DC HD locals were going to be moved off of 61.5 (Rainbow-1/Echostar-12) in the near future by a a local yutz retailer, I didn't give it a second thought. However, on Friday I was told the same thing by a very reputable local retailer. Not that I doubt him, but I'm sure we would have heard something about it right here at SatGuys. Anyway, it appears that E* is telling at least a handful, or more, retailers that HD will be moving off of 61.5. Isn't E* going to launch EchoStar-11 early next year? If so, at what orbital location?

Sorry to hijack the thread...

Roswell, good letter...I hope you get your installation resolved!

What do you do with the HD people that don't have LOS to 129?
What do you do with the HD people that 129 doesn't cover?
http://ekb.dbstalk.com/pictures/Dish1000Exclusions.jpg

61.5 isn't going away unless they have some bright idea under their sleave on where to put the HD from 61.5.

 

[Jared Twomey]

What do you do with the HD people that don't have LOS to 129?
What do you do with the HD people that 129 doesn't cover?
http://ekb.dbstalk.com/pictures/Dish1000Exclusions.jpg

61.5 isn't going away unless they have some bright idea under their sleave on where to put the HD from 61.5.

right now they would use 61.5... if for some reason they decided to shut off the HD at 61.5, then the answers to your questions would be....
1. Don't do the install
2. Don't do the install

And as far as the original posters post.... Dish is not going to do the installation if you do not have a clear line of site to at least the 110 and 119. I agree that they should send a senior tech, or supervisor out to check for line of sight, but to ask then to mount a dish, run the cable, and set up a receiver to "see what kind of signals are received", well... as an installer, I wouldn't do it.
If it was me, I would call a local retailer and have them come out and check for line of sight. When you call Dish directly they already obviously have a note in the system for no LOS... and no installer is going to waste his time, and $3 a gallon gas to go out to a job where, according to the work order, there is no LOS.

just my opinion, from an installers point of view

 

[dirkleearm]

I would cancel my work order with "Dish" and call a "local retailer" to take care of you. We run into this all the time, DNS no shows etc, customer is mad so calls us and we take care of them.

 

[RoswellGA]

Well, I launched the email on Saturday afternoon. I got are response within 1/2 an hour saying that they were refunding my 254.95 dollars because they had sent out 3 technicians and all had said that there was no LoS. I responded back that the only technician that talked to me was the initial one, and that while I agreed that from the curb, it does appear that there is no way I could have LoS, but that they don't know my property like I do. I told him that I was certain I had LoS for an OTA/61.5/110/119 install at the least. He responded that a Quality Assurance Manager would drop by my property and followed up with a phone call indicating that he was on the way.

When the QA manager got there I showed him the locations that I felt I had LoS.. He was hesitant at first, but agreed to schedule a 3 dish install next week.

I was wondering if I would be going too far if I asked them to replace the Voom LNB with one of their own and make it a 4 dish install with 61.5 taking the precedence for HD with 129 as a backup and locals?

Thanks everyone for your feedback, and thank you CEO@Echostar.com for your help in resolving this situation.

 

[rich88]

Well, I launched the email on Saturday afternoon. I got are response within 1/2 an hour saying that they were refunding my 254.95 dollars because they had sent out 3 technicians and all had said that there was no LoS. I responded back that the only technician that talked to me was the initial one, and that while I agreed that from the curb, it does appear that there is no way I could have LoS, but that they don't know my property like I do. I told him that I was certain I had LoS for an OTA/61.5/110/119 install at the least. He responded that a Quality Assurance Manager would drop by my property and followed up with a phone call indicating that he was on the way.

When the QA manager got there I showed him the locations that I felt I had LoS.. He was hesitant at first, but agreed to schedule a 3 dish install next week.

I was wondering if I would be going too far if I asked them to replace the Voom LNB with one of their own and make it a 4 dish install with 61.5 taking the precedence for HD with 129 as a backup and locals?

Thanks everyone for your feedback, and thank you CEO@Echostar.com for your help in resolving this situation.

I hope you don't start griping when the best they can do for you is a signal strength down around 50 or 60.

And also hope you don't start complaining about how cluttered your roof looks with all those dishes.

 

[JH1949]

.....I told him that I was certain I had LoS for an OTA/61.5/110/119 install at the least. He responded that a Quality Assurance Manager would drop by my property and followed up with a phone call indicating that he was on the way.

When the QA manager got there I showed him the locations that I felt I had LoS.. He was hesitant at first, but agreed to schedule a 3 dish install next week.

Why do you need a three dish install when a Dish 500 would give you 110/119 and a second Dish 500 would give you 61.5 ?

 

[RoswellGA]

Why do you need a three dish install when a Dish 500 would give you 110/119 and a second Dish 500 would give you 61.5 ?

The QA guy doesn't think I have a spot from which you can see 110 and 119. I disagree, but didn't want to argue. So he is going to put up one dish for 110, another for 119 and a third for 129. I want to add the 4th for 61.5 which he didn't include in his calculations at all. I already have a dish pointing at 61.5, so would just need their LNB installed on it.

 

[Roadwarrior]

I don't know about those other techs,(are they DNS techs? are they subs?), but when I have 5 jobs to do and I come up on a job that's already been called NLOS and I see nothing but trees when I pull up, I'm not going to waste my time looking for 4 different satellites with 4 different dishes just to find out I can't get one (or more)of them. My company wont pay for the must carry when the w/o calls for a 1000, let alone 3! What if I could only pull a 50 or 60 on the 129? I get charged back for trouble calls, and if I lose my los within a year after the install I will get charged for a reinstall. I'm still not clear on what happens if i lose it and there is no where to move it. Regardless, I'm not putting a system in unless I can comfortably guarantee a good LOS indefinitely. Sometimes it's just not gonna go in, and alot of customers don't want to accept it. I will do what I can, because if the job doesn't go in, I don't get paid, but we're not miracle workers.

Now, if the customer was willing to pay me for my time, pony up the cash for a DP 44 switch and accept the results, I'd find the time to do it. Otherwise, you may have to break out the ole chainsaw or just go with cable.

 

[JH1949]

The QA guy doesn't think I have a spot from which you can see 110 and 119. I disagree, but didn't want to argue. So he is going to put up one dish for 110, another for 119 and a third for 129. I want to add the 4th for 61.5 which he didn't include in his calculations at all. I already have a dish pointing at 61.5, so would just need their LNB installed on it.

Does anyone know what are the minimum Sat locations needed for an install ? Would they be able to install just 61.5 which you have LOS for already plus just the one other Sat that transmits the Guide (just 110 OR just 119) ?

 

[Roadwarrior]

Does anyone know what are the minimum Sat locations needed for an install ? Would they be able to install just 61.5 which you have LOS for already plus just the one other Sat that transmits the Guide (just 110 OR just 119) ?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but I have done Sky Angel installs with a 300 and was only hitting the 61.5.

 

[rich88]

The QA guy doesn't think I have a spot from which you can see 110 and 119. I disagree, but didn't want to argue. So he is going to put up one dish for 110, another for 119 and a third for 129. I want to add the 4th for 61.5 which he didn't include in his calculations at all. I already have a dish pointing at 61.5, so would just need their LNB installed on it.

I feel compelled to ask you how come you think you know better than the technicians??

Man, if I was putting your system in, I would make sure you signed-off on everything I advised you against on the service agreement before I even unlocked the side door on the van to start getting my equipment out.

You're just asking for a "problematic" system, and then you'll be ticked because you're locked-in for 18 months on the DHA agreement.

 

[RoswellGA]

I feel compelled to ask you how come you think you know better than the technicians??

Man, if I was putting your system in, I would make sure you signed-off on everything I advised you against on the service agreement before I even unlocked the side door on the van to start getting my equipment out.

You're just asking for a "problematic" system, and then you'll be ticked because you're locked-in for 18 months on the DHA agreement.

Well, I'm assuming that the look angles given from the following site are accurate if you put in your exact Longitude and Lattitude.

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Satellite-Heading-Calculator.htm

As an example for my location 129 is at a 28.5 degree elevation at 240.5 degrees. If I correct for magnetic versus true north which the site gives, then the satellite is between 236 and 236.5 degrees on the compass. The QA Manager said the satellite was at 243. He was eyeballing it with generic rather than specific information. In other words, I feel I did my homework more diligently than he did.

I'm not asking for an install if there is a marginal signal or an iffy LoS, I'm just asking for a technician to use a meter and actually determine whether a LoS exists rather than eyeballing it with non-specific information.

 

[JH1949]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly...

Roswell said he got the original Voom OK, so hypothetically he could the Dish Voom at 61.5 now.

But I thought I read on a previous post in SatGuys, that Dish won't install at a location that only has LOS to 61.5.

So I was trying to ask, what are the minimum sat locations that must be received for Dish to do an install for Roswell:

(a) 110 ?
(b) 119 ?
(c) both 110 and 119 ?

TIA

 

[Jared Twomey]

Well, I'm assuming that the look angles given from the following site are accurate if you put in your exact Longitude and Lattitude.

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Satellite-Heading-Calculator.htm

As an example for my location 129 is at a 28.5 degree elevation at 240.5 degrees. If I correct for magnetic versus true north which the site gives, then the satellite is between 236 and 236.5 degrees on the compass. The QA Manager said the satellite was at 243. He was eyeballing it with generic rather than specific information. In other words, I feel I did my homework more diligently than he did.

I'm not asking for an install if there is a marginal signal or an iffy LoS, I'm just asking for a technician to use a meter and actually determine whether a LoS exists rather than eyeballing it with non-specific information.

for one, those numbers are a starting point... not dead on exact.
And there is no meter that can determine line of site. Eyeballing is what installers do. When you put in 4 or 5 of these things a day, a good installer can pretty much look around and figure out if there is a LOS or not. There is no magical meter to determine LOS. The best you are going to get is a compass and a inclinometer (which I don't carry on the truck, because I don't use it, don't need it)... The only way an installer could actually use a meter would be to mount a dish, and line it up and see if it worked. And you aren't going to find many installers that are willing to waste their valuable time, just to prove to you that they were right to begin with.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I personally get offended by customers that are totally convinced they know more than the installer does. I deal with it far to often (LOS issues are usually the worst) sometimes you just can't get a signal, period.

And even if you do have border line chance at getting a signal, right over the tree tops, or right between 2 trees, most installers still aren't going to install it, because they have to guarantee their work. If a customer is going to call dish to complain everytime a tree sways and knocks out their signal, it's not worth it to do the install. If come spring or summer a tree is going to blossom out and kill the signal, again, not worth the hassle. Installers are sometimes picky too just because they have to maintain that system. If I have to go back every month to a house because the signal is weak and the customer keeps calling, that job ends up costing me more than I ever got paid on it......

and to answer the other poster's question. You have to have a clear LOS to whatever satellite's are needed for the programming you are wanting. If you are wanting HD, but have no LOS for 129 or 61.5.... Dish isn't going to install the system. I would think on a regular setup, no HD or anything, 110 and 119 minimum. You could get away with just 119, but you would be missing channels most likely.

 

[dishcomm]

right now they would use 61.5... if for some reason they decided to shut off the HD at 61.5, then the answers to your questions would be....
1. Don't do the install
2. Don't do the install

And as far as the original posters post.... Dish is not going to do the installation if you do not have a clear line of site to at least the 110 and 119. I agree that they should send a senior tech, or supervisor out to check for line of sight, but to ask then to mount a dish, run the cable, and set up a receiver to "see what kind of signals are received", well... as an installer, I wouldn't do it.
If it was me, I would call a local retailer and have them come out and check for line of sight. When you call Dish directly they already obviously have a note in the system for no LOS... and no installer is going to waste his time, and $3 a gallon gas to go out to a job where, according to the work order, there is no LOS.

just my opinion, from an installers point of view

When I make a determination there is no line of sight..That's that.....If there is a chance I will exhaust my options before calling it quits..
Only once did I have a cust insist that I "didn't try hard enough"..He wanted me to install the system to prove to him there was no signal..Of course I turned down that request and went on my way..of course this bozo called dish and complianed...My supe went out two days later and told the guy the same thing....He was really pissed but too bad....It's just TV for Christ's sake...

 

[dishcomm]

Well, I launched the email on Saturday afternoon. I got are response within 1/2 an hour saying that they were refunding my 254.95 dollars because they had sent out 3 technicians and all had said that there was no LoS. I responded back that the only technician that talked to me was the initial one, and that while I agreed that from the curb, it does appear that there is no way I could have LoS, but that they don't know my property like I do. I told him that I was certain I had LoS for an OTA/61.5/110/119 install at the least. He responded that a Quality Assurance Manager would drop by my property and followed up with a phone call indicating that he was on the way.

When the QA manager got there I showed him the locations that I felt I had LoS.. He was hesitant at first, but agreed to schedule a 3 dish install next week.

I was wondering if I would be going too far if I asked them to replace the Voom LNB with one of their own and make it a 4 dish install with 61.5 taking the precedence for HD with 129 as a backup and locals?

Thanks everyone for your feedback, and thank you CEO@Echostar.com for your help in resolving this situation.

A three dish install?....Who is THIS friggin guy?.....I hope you realize that you are asking for touble..there is no telling what this so called QA guy knows....He could be one of these nose to the grindstone corporate types that doesn't know squat about what goes on in the field....
But you go on...That's fine.....I wouldn't touch it ..It's too time consuming and I would literally lose money on a job like that....
Good luck to you!