Installer tells me it's illegal to install my dish?!?! HELP!

[Liquidforce88]

I thought the installers were suppose to do their homework like getting all facts down & clear. The FCC had passed The Telecommunication Act of 1996 to allow satellite dishes up to 39" in diameter to be used in residential applications. You can print a copy of the OTARD Rule from FCC's website. I abide only to the FCC like I always have to The Constitution. Federal government supersedes any local or state laws per circumstance. Don't let those bullies push you round with wrong information. Contact your Attorney's Office when necessary.

This really has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[popzezo]

wow when i started the whole they will burn out thing ,,, i didnt mean FIRE... omg .. i ment as in when a piece of cable goes bad... like a piece of cable hit by surge.. or a burned up barrel. didnt mean literal

as far as SATGIRLS comment.. yea she has all of one comment..

and as far as comcast comment..dude before you get someone sued.. practice what you preach.. you really need to re read the fcc regs
FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas it clearly states that they can make rules as long as it doesnt completely prevent installation of desired signal, or cause a unrealistic cost to the customer. the owner has a right to make rules!! end of story

What types of restrictions are prohibited?
A: The rule prohibits restrictions that impair a person's ability to install, maintain, or use an antenna covered by the rule. The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules, condominium or cooperative association restrictions, lease restrictions, or similar restrictions on property within the exclusive use or control of the antenna user where the user has an ownership or leasehold interest in the property. A restriction impairs if it: (1) unreasonably delays or prevents use of; (2) unreasonably increases the cost of; or (3) precludes a person from receiving or transmitting an acceptable quality signal from an antenna covered under the rule. The rule does not prohibit legitimate safety restrictions or restrictions designed to preserve designated or eligible historic or prehistoric properties, provided the restriction is no more burdensome than necessary to accomplish the safety or preservation purpose.

Restiction on area of installation
The rule allows local governments, community associations and landlords to enforce restrictions that do not impair the installation, maintenance or use of the types of antennas described above, as well as restrictions needed for safety or historic preservation. Under some circumstances where a central or common antenna is available, a community association or landlord may restrict the installation of individual antennas. The rule does not apply to common areas that are owned by a landlord, a community association, or jointly by condominium or cooperative owners where the antenna user does not have an exclusive use area. Such common areas may include the roof or exterior wall of a multiple dwelling unit. Therefore, restrictions on antennas installed in or on such common areas are enforceable.

Rules on drilling
If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?
A: The rule applies to antenna users who live in a multiple dwelling unit building, such as a condominium or apartment building, if the antenna user has an exclusive use area in which to install the antenna. "Exclusive use" means an area of the property that only you, and persons you permit, may enter and use to the exclusion of other residents. For example, your condominium or apartment may include a balcony, terrace, deck or patio that only you can use, and the rule applies to these areas. The rule does not apply to common areas, such as the roof, the hallways, the walkways or the exterior walls of a condominium or apartment building. Restrictions on antennas installed in these common areas are not covered by the Commission's rule. For example, the rule would not apply to restrictions that prevent drilling through the exterior wall of a condominium or rental unit and thus restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling

 

[DirectDishNet]

Here is my .2 cents. I am a sub contractor in the Phoenix area and here we get QA'd on more than 90% of our jobs. Never like this before and I don't know what the hell is going on here but it seems they will FAIL us on just about everything now. I have been doing so much free work/installes the past few months due to FAILS. most of the fails now are in apartments. Not a proper ground, dish not secure, trip hazards, customer cause, No bucket mounts allowed, no tripod allowed, and more bull crap fails. Since I have to pay for my gas and cable and connectors, Anytime I get a apartment work order I look for any reason to cxl it. I have been failed for using tripods and for not grounding. How the heck I gonna ground on a 3rd floor balcony when there is NOT any DNSC - NEC proper grounds?. In the past, I would love to get LOS in an apartment cuz it was a easy install didn't have to worry about NEC codes. Now I do. so now I cxl apartment jobs. Sucks for the customer but I can't do free work.
Speaking of backcharges, Here we are getting backcharged for failed QA's left and right. DNSC has hired more QA Techs here just to hit the sub contractors. Yes there are sh!tty installers out there but c-mon, Fails for not having 6 bolts in a mast, Not enough pitch patch, connectors not tight enough (they use torch renches to test), mast not leval (even though we can offset that by the sku) Recover button not set (even if we use the RCA's to VID 1 or 2), back feed wall plate not blue (No reason for that). Ground block not secure with 2 screws, and more bull sh*t like that. I even FAILED and got Backcharged for not setting the 5.3 remote to "limited Mode". Elderly customer called dish cuz they keep changing the tv channel to 10 or 8 and dish set up TC, Dish backcharghed my retailer $171.99. How do you like that?
Oh And TC's or Service calls?, We have to bring them up to spec. If I go on a TC and it takes me 2 minutes to put the TV2 back on 60 or 73, I still have to bring it up to code. That meens add a facia mount if dish is mounted to eve, Add Pitch Patch, Replace cable if it has barrels in it or staples holding it up, Move ground block to 5' of ground source, replace wall barrels. Most of the time we are doing a fresh install for the price of a TC.
So in the end, Customers are suffering cuz I will be damned if I fail another QA's. Dish Network has to understand that we try to do what ever it takes to get it in the ground and give the customers better TV.
I know for a fact that most dish installers take pride in there work, enjoy there work and want to keep the customer happy. So by dish stabbing us in the back and back charging for every little thing they can is just going to make it worse for the customers in the long run.

 

[dishcomm]

Here is my .2 cents. I am a sub contractor in the Phoenix area and here we get QA'd on more than 90% of our jobs. Never like this before and I don't know what the hell is going on here but it seems they will FAIL us on just about everything now. I have been doing so much free work/installes the past few months due to FAILS. most of the fails now are in apartments. Not a proper ground, dish not secure, trip hazards, customer cause, No bucket mounts allowed, no tripod allowed, and more bull crap fails. Since I have to pay for my gas and cable and connectors, Anytime I get a apartment work order I look for any reason to cxl it. I have been failed for using tripods and for not grounding. How the heck I gonna ground on a 3rd floor balcony when there is NOT any DNSC - NEC proper grounds?. In the past, I would love to get LOS in an apartment cuz it was a easy install didn't have to worry about NEC codes. Now I do. so now I cxl apartment jobs. Sucks for the customer but I can't do free work.
Speaking of backcharges, Here we are getting backcharged for failed QA's left and right. DNSC has hired more QA Techs here just to hit the sub contractors. Yes there are sh!tty installers out there but c-mon, Fails for not having 6 bolts in a mast, Not enough pitch patch, connectors not tight enough (they use torch renches to test), mast not leval (even though we can offset that by the sku) Recover button not set (even if we use the RCA's to VID 1 or 2), back feed wall plate not blue (No reason for that). Ground block not secure with 2 screws, and more bull sh*t like that. I even FAILED and got Backcharged for not setting the 5.3 remote to "limited Mode". Elderly customer called dish cuz they keep changing the tv channel to 10 or 8 and dish set up TC, Dish backcharghed my retailer $171.99. How do you like that?
Oh And TC's or Service calls?, We have to bring them up to spec. If I go on a TC and it takes me 2 minutes to put the TV2 back on 60 or 73, I still have to bring it up to code. That meens add a facia mount if dish is mounted to eve, Add Pitch Patch, Replace cable if it has barrels in it or staples holding it up, Move ground block to 5' of ground source, replace wall barrels. Most of the time we are doing a fresh install for the price of a TC.
So in the end, Customers are suffering cuz I will be damned if I fail another QA's. Dish Network has to understand that we try to do what ever it takes to get it in the ground and give the customers better TV.
I know for a fact that most dish installers take pride in there work, enjoy there work and want to keep the customer happy. So by dish stabbing us in the back and back charging for every little thing they can is just going to make it worse for the customers in the long run.

Fortunately we don't go thru 99% of that. I would quit the business faster than a jack rabbit on a date if that were the case here.
First the DNSC office has told us to get apt installs done whenever possible. No QC's on those. They go the numbers on comp rates on apts and they sucked. Number one reason other than LOS, no place to ground. QC's hit about 25 to 25% of the jobs here. There is no money in the budget to hire people full time to QC every job . In fact I would like to know where the money comes from to QC every job in your area. Perhaps the object is to back charge as many jobs as possible to justify the QC people's salaries. Reminds me of how Govt wastes money.
Most of the backcharges you mention are out and out thievery.
Here's the rub. No one, no the techs or the install companies are willing to stand up to Dish and challenge them. The cont6rator companies just want the work. SO they cave.
The techs won't rock the boat because they afriad to lose their jobs.
However, I know plenty of people , good techs who had enough of working for peanuts, having ot perform services free of charge that used ot be chargable and getting TC work orders to fix other people's garbage
Anty way,.. I f I come up on a job that isn't to spec for a simple change of an LNB or customer education, i note the condition of the install and we put it into our notes. If Dish QC's the job, they fix it. They haven't complained ot us yet so all's well. But if they start demanding we bring other subs of DNSC work to spec without compensation, they can go EF themseleves. I am not doing it. Period.
This business is getting out of control. Dish is looking for more ways to save money and they are doing so on the backs of the very people that in the end, get them new customers. So they will eventually have to go on withiout the best people. We will all leave the business and Dish will be left wiht a bunch of $12 hour people that don't give a sh*t. At that point I would say Dish ahas made their bed . Now they can sleep in it.
I am working on getting out of this business as we speak. Interview this week.
If it works out, I will finally be able to park my car in the garage.
In the end this used ot be a fun job. The top brass made it a chore.
They will have only themselves to blame.

 

[DirectDishNet]

I agree, They are loosing all of the good techs that took pride in the work and now new subs are comming in and finding out the hardway that yes, The money is good but the Bullsh!t out weighs the money. In the end Dish will not get that JD Powers award they so much want every year. How can they when they don't have any more good techs?. I have been in the Satellite business since Primestar and C-Band. I use to love it and look forward to the next day. I use to have my truck all ready the night before, My work orders ready and my service agreements all filled out the night before. Now, It's getting to the point that I just don't like my job anymore. How can I when I do my best and I get backcharged because the customer calls dish within 30 day's and sets up a TC because he does not know how to hook up a VCR or DVD or Surround sound system that he just bought?. Bought after the install was done.
Well, If any GM's or Dish supervisors ever read this I hope that they take to heart that yes, They are saving money by not paying the retailer for some Bullsh!t failed QA but in the long run, Who is going to be left to do the installs?. Guy's with years of experience and can do the job the first time without rescheduling for attic work or wall fish's or LOS issues?.NO!!... It's going to be some young person that does not know sh*t about the job. Someone who runs cable all over the outside of the house just so he/she does not have to do a wall fish. Someone who uses butt plugs instead of wall plates. Someone who damages the customers home and doesn't tell the customer. Thats who they will have to do the installs. Thats going to cause more TC's. Thats going to bite Dish in the butt. Remember DISH Network, Word of mouth get you more business. Pissed off customers will get the Directv more customers.
Sorry for getting off topic.

 

[wmi]

If the installer went to the management office first, then he did not want to do the installation period!

He was just hoping that the management office would tell him no so he would have an excuse to cancel out the Job, when he could not get that excuse, he came up with his own!

That's a load of freaking crap, I mean FREAKING!!!

I've seen and heard of it too many times where a tech has been stopped half-way thru a job by the management because they didn't like the way it HAD to be installed or they just didn't want it being installed for WHATEVER reason they give us.

How would you like it if I just showed up to your property and started doing a install without you knowing???

More and more apartment managers are trying to keep us and Directv out of there complexes by using legal means such as security deposits, etc., etc. They aren't denying the customer his right to satellite TV, they are just making it harder and harder for the tenant to get it.

 

[DirectDishNet]

Yep, Just last Friday I was standing outside of the patio with the customer discussing the site survey and then some guy barely spoke english came charging up on a golf cart yelling "No dish- No Antenna" My customer who spoke spanish told me that he said that they don't allow dish's on the property any more even though they had a million all over that crime ridden apartment complex. He said as of last month they no longer allowed dish's. Since the management was in a different state, I handed the customer the FCC ruling on dish's and told them to call us when it got smoothed over.

 

[vegassatellite]

I guess I'm lucky. I now work for retailers that don't want apartment subs because they have come to realize that too many of them move out after their six month apartment lease is up and they end up moving to a bottom floor, North facing apartment.

Last time I did apartments, I precalled the apartment dwellers and had them fax the lease addendum and a property map highlighting their unit location along with an arrow designating which direction the patio faced. That way, I knew how it needed to be installed and if it could be installed before I ever turned the keys in the ignition. That eliminated about 75% of apartment jobs and cut the NLOS way down on actual sites visited. I even got to the point of checking Google Earth to see if there were trees to the South on the ones that had South facing patios.

Check out this Google Map link and see if the apartments that come up have a good LOS. (Hint: look at trees overshadowing roofs)

LINK

 

[aegrotatio]

I'm a residential / commercial installer. The only way a flat section will burn out is if it is pinched. In most cases, a small cut in the metal under the door or slider will avoid this. After installing the flat section, simply apply a thin coat of caulking. The voltage on the line does not exceed 15 volts - DC.

Hold up, it's not the voltage that causes the fire. It's the current.

For DiSH Network DPP it is specified for 19 volts, 750 milliamps. 750 milliamps is a huge amount of current for a coaxial cable to carry. My dish motor only draws a maximum of 500 milliamps at 17 volts.

Grab an unused wal-wart and short it out if you cannot understand. You will smell burning plastic at best, see smoke and shrivelling insulation at worst. That can get hot enough to ignite nearby combustibles like sheer drapes.

I'm just sayin'.

.

 

[Andrewwski]

It won't burn up. 750 milliamps really isn't that much. You can run that much current through 22 AWG wire, which is much thinner than flat coax.

 

[aegrotatio]

It won't burn up. 750 milliamps really isn't that much. You can run that much current through 22 AWG wire, which is much thinner than flat coax.

I probably should have clarified that it would burn up if it were shorted.

 

[vegassatellite]

It won't burn up. 750 milliamps really isn't that much. You can run that much current through 22 AWG wire, which is much thinner than flat coax.

It really depends on the conductor type as well. Different metals have different heat rise characteristics. I haven't used the flatwires so I don't know anything about them. If I were to do a job requiring them, I would make sure the flatwire was UL listed because I don't want someone going after my insurance because of some cheap China flatwire. I would also be charging quite a bit as I've seen these things fail quite often. Basically, I would be covering most of the follow-up service call in the price. The customer will understand that the flatwire is not recommended and that it is not warrantied by me and they will have to pay for any service calls relating to failure of that flatwire.

 

[Andrewwski]

I probably should have clarified that it would burn up if it were shorted.

Ah, much better.

 

[thataway5000]

another reason why this tech would not want to do the install is the same reason as i do. he has to warranty this install for one year and i do not install anything that will have the possibilty of charge back to me. i use it as a bluff, either let me drill through your walla nd you sign off on it or you dont get dish.

 

[TNGTony]

Could there be an ordinance or building code in the local area against flat cables because of the fire issue? That could be what the installer meant by "illegal". He could have also meant that it is against his company rules (many people cannot tell the difference between these two. It is as nuanced to many as the terms illegal and unlawful (which also don't mean the same thing))

But more than likely, considering the "cracker-jack" installers I got my first time around last summer (eesch), the installer was blowing you off!

See ya
Tony

 

[Buzzdar]

i know many years ago i had insight cable come out to install 3 tv's and they had to install new wiring and the only way to get the tv cable from one room to another was to go across a door way they told me they can not go under a door way. so i grabbed a cable and put it under the run and i was like you didnt go under the door way lol it was already there lol. and they were good to go.

 

[dishcomm]

Could there be an ordinance or building code in the local area against flat cables because of the fire issue? That could be what the installer meant by "illegal". He could have also meant that it is against his company rules (many people cannot tell the difference between these two. It is as nuanced to many as the terms illegal and unlawful (which also don't mean the same thing))

But more than likely, considering the "cracker-jack" installers I got my first time around last summer (eesch), the installer was blowing you off!

See ya
Tony

Yessiree. the flat cable debate rages on...
The rules have indeed changed. We were once forbidden to use flat cables for any reason. But due to the restrictions most apartment complexes place upon satellite installs, many apartment jobs were not completed.
The most prevalent reason was , no drilling. SO the GM of the DNSC office here decided that since the new connect completion rates were alarmingly low, he and others in positions of authority waived virtually all spec rules with the sole intention of boosting completion rates.
For example. Apartment jobs no longer are required to be grounded
Flat cables are allowed. Clamps of various types are now permitted where apartment rules prohibit permanent attachments of dish masts.
There are three reasons why apartment jobs go undone. 1) free standing mount required. We do not do free standing mounts of any kind. No tripods or bucket mounts. Reason, too many trouble calls. 2)line of sight.
3) properties that prohibit the installation of ANY outdoor antennas of any kind...Yes apartment management companies do have the ultimate authority to ban all outdoor antennas, including satellite antennas.
What irritates me about this is most apartment comlexes will allow the local cable operator carte blanche on their properties.

 

[TNGTony]

Yes apartment management companies do have the ultimate authority to ban all outdoor antennas, including satellite antennas.

No they don't. FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas

The rule (47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000) has been in effect since October 1996, and it prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming. The rule applies to video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska), TV antennas, and wireless cable antennas. The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use; (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal.

Effective January 22, 1999, the Commission amended the rule so that it also applies to rental property where the renter has an exclusive use area, such as a balcony or patio.
------
Q: Can a restriction limit the number of antennas that may be installed at a particular location?

The Commission’s rule covers the antennas necessary to receive service. Therefore, a local rule may not, for example, allow only one antenna if more than one antenna is necessary to receive the desired service.
----------
Q: If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?

A: The rule applies to antenna users who live in a multiple dwelling unit building, such as a condominium or apartment building, if the antenna user has an exclusive use area in which to install the antenna.

 

[chadzx11]

i know many years ago i had insight cable come out to install 3 tv's and they had to install new wiring and the only way to get the tv cable from one room to another was to go across a door way they told me they can not go under a door way. so i grabbed a cable and put it under the run and i was like you didnt go under the door way lol it was already there lol. and they were good to go.

Drilling a hole in an apartment is a no no. Its a fire hazzard. If my apartment got burned and the FD said it spread because the firebreak was compromised because of a hole you drilled, I would definately come after your ass. You are literally playing with fire because most renter's don't have their own insurance.

 

[dishcomm]

No they don't. FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas

I am well aware of the regulations. They do not in essence apply to multifamily rental comunities. I will explain.
If I own an aparmtent complex I may write into leases that the property prohibits the insatllation of any televisoion or radio antennas of any kind. The renter agrees to this when they sign the lease.
There is one large apartment management company in this area that does just that. The company rents upscale luxury units.
on the other end of the spectrum I ran into a situation at another low income complex. New owners had taken over the complex. They essentially cancelled all their leases and required every tennant to sign a new one or go month to month at a large increase in rent...Anyway, in the new lease was a prohibtion for tv antennas. All lessees would be able to keep their service until their contracts ran out and then the dish was to removed by maintenence. The manager explained to me that the new owners had bad experiences at other properties with techs and tenants installing systems and the problems that went with this. So they just made a rule..No antennas. Period.
I realize that if a person made a stink, they could go to court and challenge the rules of the complex. But then that person would have to look at the big picture. Is it worth spending thousands on an attorney for tv? Or they could just move to a more satellite friendly place or buy a house.
Anyway, the bottom line is this; if one wishes to have unfettered access to satellite tv, buy a house or rent in a satellite friendly place.