National Network HD feeds (Urgent Update):

[Alan Gordon]

SD DNS will be gone once they start offering a nearby markets SD channels in those markets that currently don't have SD local channels.

That's illegal! They can't even offer "Significantly Viewed" channels unless that person has SD-LIL available to them.

I'm also hearing that SD local channels won't be added in anymore markets because HD locals will be the only locals offered after 2009. Between that time customers can get a nearby SD market like I said.

You mean, besides the three that has been announced for this winter?!

~Alan

 

[srjewettlaw]

Fellow Floridian Longhorn XP

Are you saying that until they make an HD DVR available I will be able to keep my HD TIVO since they will not have "upgraded" everyone ?

If not, it seems that the DMA's lower on the list have it better since it will be longer before they lose their TIVO. Which gives D* longer to get the HD DVR up and working.


Thanks for all your info Longhorn.

PS-I'm in Orlando and from what I've read about the D* HD DVR I'd rather keep my TIVO.

 

[LonghornXP]

That's illegal! They can't even offer "Significantly Viewed" channels unless that person has SD-LIL available to them.



You mean, besides the three that has been announced for this winter?!

~Alan

If they can offer you SD DNS channels let me assure you they can instead offer you a nearby local markets SD locals. Also the markets that have been announced can't exactly be stopped but that doesn't mean that D* still has to add more now does it.

Many changes are being done with regards to LIL carriage during this transition. Most customers in those markets don't pay for the locals packages which means that the local station owners aren't getting paid. These local station owners would rather get some of those customers 5+ bucks a month if they have an incentive to buy them. By D* taking away the DNS feeds from those customers they can decide if they want an OTA antenna or to buy the local channels package to get those nearby markets SD locals. Most local stations are owned by pretty much 10 companies so they would rather get something rather than nothing for the time being until this transition gets done.

 

[LonghornXP]

Fellow Floridian Longhorn XP

Are you saying that until they make an HD DVR available I will be able to keep my HD TIVO since they will not have "upgraded" everyone ?

If not, it seems that the DMA's lower on the list have it better since it will be longer before they lose their TIVO. Which gives D* longer to get the HD DVR up and working.


Thanks for all your info Longhorn.

PS-I'm in Orlando and from what I've read about the D* HD DVR I'd rather keep my TIVO.

You will have no change in service until every customer within your DMA that has an HD Tivo can get a replacement HD DVR. Even if HD DVR boxes are available it still won't be an issue if your market hasn't come up yet to get HD local channels. Again you must first have your markets HD locals available. Once they are available if D* has enough supply to provide every HD DVR user in the DMA with a free HD DVR replacement it would be 90 days from that point. Now as with anything it will on average take about a year after each market has HD locals available to them because getting the new dishes installed is what would take the time. Because before they can turn them off every customer within that DMA must have enough time to get both the new dish installed and get their boxes upgraded (HD box for HD box and HD DVR for HD Tivo). All the customers who have been given 90 days once that 90 days has passed they can turn them off and that customer can keep his/her HD Tivo without HD locals, without distant networks and without new national HD offerings into the future or they can take the replacement HD DVR and get everything listed but the distant networks of course.

 

[minorthr]

I have an an HD box and an HD Tivo. If I upgrade the HD box to mpeg 4 but keep the hd Tivo since there is no HD DVR. Then ill still have my National HD channels until the HD Dvr comes out. Am I reading all that correctly

 

[Juan]

Which is exactly why his company DirecTV will follow the book on this for one simple reason.

1. Dish and other companies would cry foul and yell antitrust which means that all providers including cable and dish network would be allowed to carry network feeds. Could you imagine how much crap Rupert would cause himself and his "friends" if a cable company could just demand that say the local ABC station pay them for the HD feed or they would just offer their customers a network feed.

You again must understand that this isn't as simple as you all think it is and just because Rupert has some control with the NAB doesn't mean its his doing. If Rupert could he would give D* more local channel power for his company instead of cable companies but he can't. I think by Rupert adding HD locals on his company DirecTV via satellite is actually good. Could you imagine how much worse it could be right now because I can. You will be better off with options for local HD channels in the future with only a very very few people losing something like a soap show a few hours later or earlier.

I mean He thinks like a Broadcaster whereas The old directv and Chrlie E were extremely anti broadcaster

 

[Alan Gordon]

If they can offer you SD DNS channels let me assure you they can instead offer you a nearby local markets SD locals.

Yes, if you can receive SD-DNS, you could also receive neighboring SD LIL, BUT many people cannot receive SD-DNS. For instance, in my DMA, there is no CBS or ABC. It's fairly easy to get a waiver for ABC (even though at my address, there is two ABC affiliates that consider me "Grade B"), but impossible to get a waiver for CBS... and there isn't even one in my DMA.

Also the markets that have been announced can't exactly be stopped but that doesn't mean that D* still has to add more now does it.

"“Local channels are an important programming option for DIRECTV customers who want to stay on top of news events, weather and sports in their local community or region and don't want to depend on their cable service and off-air antenna for reception,” said Dan Fawcett, executive vice president, Programming Acquisition, DIRECTV, Inc. “We are continuing to look at how we can deploy our capacity to serve additional communities with local programming.” "

He could be referring to HD-LIL, but I doubt we've seen the last of SD-LIL.

Many changes are being done with regards to LIL carriage during this transition.

The only changes that DirecTV can make has been explained in the new SHVERA. The chances of this happening is VERY LOW...

~Alan

 

[all4jo]

Would there be still be hd national networks available after i upgrade to a mpeg4 receiver?
im asking because im actually in the carribean with my address in new york city? and right now i have access to the 4 networks. i wouldnt want to lose them, if the main new york networks will be spot beamed.
thanks
Jose

 

[LonghornXP]

I have an an HD box and an HD Tivo. If I upgrade the HD box to mpeg 4 but keep the hd Tivo since there is no HD DVR. Then ill still have my National HD channels until the HD Dvr comes out. Am I reading all that correctly

You got it right.

 

[LonghornXP]

Would there be still be hd national networks available after i upgrade to a mpeg4 receiver?
im asking because im actually in the carribean with my address in new york city? and right now i have access to the 4 networks. i wouldnt want to lose them, if the main new york networks will be spot beamed.
thanks
Jose

The NY and LA network feeds will be kept on conus for quite some time. At some point in time the NY feed would only be received via spot beam over just the eastern half of the US.

 

[LonghornXP]

Yes, if you can receive SD-DNS, you could also receive neighboring SD LIL, BUT many people cannot receive SD-DNS. For instance, in my DMA, there is no CBS or ABC. It's fairly easy to get a waiver for ABC (even though at my address, there is two ABC affiliates that consider me "Grade B"), but impossible to get a waiver for CBS... and there isn't even one in my DMA.



"“Local channels are an important programming option for DIRECTV customers who want to stay on top of news events, weather and sports in their local community or region and don't want to depend on their cable service and off-air antenna for reception,” said Dan Fawcett, executive vice president, Programming Acquisition, DIRECTV, Inc. “We are continuing to look at how we can deploy our capacity to serve additional communities with local programming.” "

He could be referring to HD-LIL, but I doubt we've seen the last of SD-LIL.



The only changes that DirecTV can make has been explained in the new SHVERA. The chances of this happening is VERY LOW...

~Alan

Again if the broadcasters say OK than we will see these changes. The laws today attempt to balance the power between providers and broadcasters. So if a broadcaster works a deal like I said above and word is they will than nothing else matters. Also keep in mind that if a broadcaster makes a deal with D* they must also offer the same deal at a similiar price to any cable or satellite company as well.

You must remember that the broadcasters are planning for HDTV carriage so if they can get paid for two years instead of the network getting paid for two years you can decide what they might do. Right now if you get distants which you pay for that money goes to the parent network. So if local station owners know that DirecTV will carry all of their local feeds by 2009 with half being done in one to one and a half years they might just want their companies to get some of that money instead of the network itself by allowing DirecTV to offer nearby markets until that time.

Just ask yourself how many Viacom owned stations are around and ask yourself how many of them could be offered to a nearby market. This is all about money and I'm sure Rupert will give them some incentives to help him keep customers. Now Rupert isn't just fighting against providers as a broadcaster only he now has to balance out the fact that he owns both a provider and a broadcasting company. You don't want to bite off the hand that feeds you so to speak.

 

[Greg Bimson]

There is a section in the SHVERA that states, paraphrased, once HD-LIL becomes available, and the customer receives it, then the DNS HD is removed.

 

[Jamey K]

Would there be still be hd national networks available after i upgrade to a mpeg4 receiver?
im asking because im actually in the carribean with my address in new york city? and right now i have access to the 4 networks. i wouldnt want to lose them, if the main new york networks will be spot beamed.
thanks
Jose

Will you lose them after everyone in the NYC DMA gets converted?

 

[keenan]

There is a section in the SHVERA that states, paraphrased, once HD-LIL becomes available, and the customer receives it, then the DNS HD is removed.

From the SHVERA Fact Sheet. April 2005.

7. How can I receive digital signals including high definition signals?

Local digital stations: As with analog signals, subscribers can install an antenna to receive digital (including “HD,” high definition, digital signals) broadcast signals over-the-air from local broadcasters that are transmitting in a digital format. In some cases, a small indoor antenna (like “rabbit ears”) may work; in other cases, you may need an outdoor antenna. Our special DTV website may help you find out which stations are broadcasting digital signals in your area and what type of antenna you need: . Alternatively, you may be able to subscribe to local-into-local digital service if your satellite carrier offers it. As of March, 2005, no satellite carrier is offering local-into-local digital signals.

Distant digital signals: Satellite carriers are not required to offer distant digital signals. If your satellite carrier offers distant signals, you may be eligible to subscribe to them if you one of the following situations applies to you.

You may be currently receiving or allowed to subscribe to distant digital signals pursuant to private agreements between your satellite carrier and one or more television networks. If, as of December 8, 2004, you received distant digital signals, you may continue to receive these signals as long as the agreement remains in effect. You may receive the digital signal regardless of whether the satellite company offers local-into-local digital service or whether you subscribe to such service. Ask your satellite carrier if it offers distant digital signals.

Alternatively, you may be eligible for distant digital signals if you are “unserved” by over-the-air analog signals. “Unserved” means your household cannot receive, with a stationary outdoor rooftop antenna, an over-the-air signal of Grade B intensity, as defined by the FCC. If your household is predicted to be “unserved” by the analog signals of a network station, you qualify for the distant digital signal of that network, if it is offered by your satellite carrier. If your satellite carrier offers local-into-local analog service, you must subscribe to it in order to qualify for distant digital signals. If you qualify for distant signal service, you can only receive signals from stations located in your same time zone or in a later time zone, not in an earlier time zone. Ask your satellite carrier which distant digital signals it offers in your area.

A third alternative, created by the 2004 SHVERA statute, will allow for signal testing at your household to determine if you are “served” by a digital signal over-the-air. In some cases, if you are shown to be “unserved,” you would be eligible for distant digital signals, provided you subscribe to local-into-local analog service if it is offered. However, this digital testing option is not available until April 30, 2006 (in the top 100 television markets) and July 15, 2007 (in all other television markets). In addition, your satellite carrier may refuse to arrange for the digital signal test, and in that case, you may arrange and pay for a test yourself, under the supervision of the satellite carrier. Your satellite carrier can tell you whether you are in a top 100 market and whether it will help you to arrange for a digital signal test once the testing provisions take effect in 2006 or 2007.

 

[Alan Gordon]

Again if the broadcasters say OK than we will see these changes.

Yes, but how many broadcasters are going to do this?! For instance, back before SHIVA, my local NBC affiliate pretty much compared satellite companies to the devil because people could get distant signals from satellite, and they urged satellite viewers to switch to cable or buy an antenna.

My local FOX and NBC affiliate WILL NOT sit idly by while DirecTV customers are viewing neighboring market channels... and I suspect this to be the same in many markets... that's why broadcasters pushed to have "Significantly Viewed" available to customers ONLY when LIL is available to them.

~Alan

 

[LonghornXP]

Yes, but how many broadcasters are going to do this?! For instance, back before SHIVA, my local NBC affiliate pretty much compared satellite companies to the devil because people could get distant signals from satellite, and they urged satellite viewers to switch to cable or buy an antenna.

My local FOX and NBC affiliate WILL NOT sit idly by while DirecTV customers are viewing neighboring market channels... and I suspect this to be the same in many markets... that's why broadcasters pushed to have "Significantly Viewed" available to customers ONLY when LIL is available to them.

~Alan

You fail to understand that when money is involved and times change you will see all companies change. Back in the day things were different and so was the market. Right now the broadcasters know that their feeds will be carried on tons of companies so they feel that if they can make money in the short term why wouldn't they. Look at this from their point of view for a second.

First they know that nearly all cable companies carry the local stations. Now they see DirecTV adding HD locals in all the DMAs within a few years. They see Verizon, SBC and maybe even power companies doing the same.

So because they know their feeds will be carried very soon and distant networks will be gone at some point in the near future they are more willing to try something different. So they see a customers in lower DMA markets that will get HD locals in about 2-3 years. They see all of these customers not having SD locals available or having SD locals but not HD local channels. So they see many customers paying for distant networks which they get nothing from.

So look at what they have to lose and what they have to gain by allowing a customer to pickup a nearby markets SD and HD channels. Well they aren't losing a customer today that is for sure. They won't lose that customer in three years when that customer gets their HD locals because they will no longer get that nearby markets feeds.

So now what do they have to gain. Instead of those customers paying the networks for those distant feeds maybe they can get paid for carriage of their locally owned stations even if those stations aren't those customers local stations. Again most local stations in this country are owned by mainly about 10-15 companies. The bottom line is that they would rather get something for the next three years compared to nothing at all and worse they are giving the networks themselves that money to boot.

Before D* had the ability to carry local channels they the local stations wanted these customers to go with cable only because they got paid in some form or another for their signals. They didn't want a customer switching to satellite and being able to get distant networks now did they. That is why local stations don't seem to have a problem allowing dish network and D* to carry local signals over satellite even though they don't get local advertising money from them. Don't you wonder why that is. Lets see how about that 5+ bucks a month from every locals package customers they all get. Granted they don't get the whole amount but they do share it and get paid. On cable they must give that channel for free via must-carry while with satellite they don't and they get paid.

Times have changed greatly compared to even five years ago and again you can't underesitmate the power of money my friend.

 

[jdspencer]

Okay, I've read through this thread and understand most of it. My question is that when HD locals become available will there be SD versions as well? I ask because it seems that DirecTV is moving full speed (half speed) ahead with HD locals. I don't yet have SD locals, so I have the 4 DNS. Our area only has ABC, CBS, Fox (with UPN subchanneled) and PBS broadcasting digitally. ABC and PBS are the only ones with HD. If my SD DirecTV DVRs are still operational when they get to my area, I'd like to be able to use them to record SD networks.

Bottom line, how many networks will DirecTV provide in HD? If my area is lacking WB for example, then DirecTV will provide WB from a nearby area, right?

 

[Alan Gordon]

They see all of these customers not having SD locals available or having SD locals but not HD local channels. So they see many customers paying for distant networks which they get nothing from.

That's just it, nobody is getting SD-DNS in my market for NBC or FOX. You want NBC or FOX, you get an antenna, cable or Dish Network. If DirecTV were to start offering "neighboring DMA" channels my local stations would be running commercials nonstop telling people how only on Dish Network can you receive your local channels, and vilify DirecTV once again.

So look at what they have to lose and what they have to gain by allowing a customer to pickup a nearby markets SD and HD channels. Well they aren't losing a customer today that is for sure. They won't lose that customer in three years when that customer gets their HD locals because they will no longer get that nearby markets feeds.

In my market, my FOX affiliate is owned by RayCom Media. RayCom Media "operates", but doesn't own the FOX affiliate in the DMA next to me (Columbus, GA, DMA #125), but DirecTV (or Dish Network) has yet to offer them LIL either. So the next closest FOX affiliate is in Panama City, FL (DMA #160) also not carried by DirecTV. The next closest is in Dothan, AL (#172), also not carried by DirecTV. Next is West Palm Beach, FL (DMA #39) and Columbia, South Carolina (DMA #84). We appear to be on the very edge of the spot beam that carries the Columbia, South Carolina LIL, so that's possible.

In my market, Liberty Corp. (soon to be merging with RayCom Media) owns the NBC affiliate, and the closest NBC affiliate owned by Liberty Corp. is in Montgomery, AL (whose spot-beam may or may not reach us), and another in Columbia, SC.

However, the local affiliates can still count DirecTV viewers as viewers regardless of whether or not they watch them, but if DirecTV offers "neighboring" markets LIL, like Columbia, South Carolina, that's money out of the advertising revenue which pays a whole lot more than what DirecTV would offer them for the price of LIL. Plus, your market is a lot bigger than mine, but my market could care less about their HD signals at the moment, and while I have no doubt that that will change in a few years, I don't see them biting their hand today... especially considering my NBC affiliate was blaming Dish Network for not offering WALB to their whole viewing area (counties outside their DMA), regardless of the fact that Dish Network couldn't legally offer it. My market wouldn't stand for it, and I'm sure that there are many like mine.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm not even trying to blame you for what you are saying, but your "source" seems to be mistaken... and I don't want anybody getting their hopes up!

~Alan

 

[colofan]

What cooks my goose is that here in Colorado because of a tower issue the OTA for HD is well marginal at best. But the stations are still allowed to deny waivers since I can get their SD signal.

Sorry for the rant

 

[Greg Bimson]

In response to keenan's posting of the SHVERA fact sheet:

What was missed is the fact that once a digital local-into-local market is added, the networks that have given a blanket waiver may rescind it at that time.

Otherwise, I was wrong. If you qualify for distant network HD, you do get to keep it when the local HD signals are available.