New Dish Install, whats included?

[codee]

Good evening!

I'm having dish installed at my new house on thurs, and I'm wondering what dish will/won't include with the install as far as parts go. I'm getting a 1000.4 dish (eastern Arc, twincities, mn 55448) plus I'd like a aux dish at 117.5 (I already have a few extra dishs and LNBs). I also have a new channel master 4221 antenna and mast for OTA channels as well. I'm getting 2 722ks to start with, and both will be backfeeding to other TVs in the house. I have Comcast DVRs on all my tvs right now, and will need to use Diplexers to get the OTA+dish feeds ran using the lease amount of extra outlets. I will be running al the outlets internally myself before thurs because everything needs wallfishes from the 3rd story to the basement, and the basement needs reverse tip'n'drills and im pretty sure the install tech wouldnt be up for that (2 to each reciever - 1 for the dish+OTA and 1 for backfeeding) - everything running to a central location in my basement. I will also run all the lines from the housebocx outside to the switch location in the basement -

My questions are -

-Does dish supply the diplexers needed to accomplish the OTA+SAT feed combining/seperating? I'll need 4 or 6 from what I can tell.

-How many feeds will be coming from the dish area? (100.4 + 117.5+OTA) Can the OTA antenna feed be carried on the same line as one of the sat lines to the switch? I'm guessing I'll need 4 or 5 lines from the dishs to the switch and I'd like to get them run from the housebox to the switch prior to the install.

I'm a lead tech for Comcast and any/everything we need is always included with installs but I dont want to be caught with a surprise come thurs and not be prepared....Everything will be basically run for the install tech though aside from the Coax to the dishs/antenna themself so I'm thinkin we'll be ok.....

thanks

 

[Agonizing Fury]

AFAIK (and I'm not in a 1000.4 market so I'm not positive about this) the 118.7 dish will run to the IN port on the 1000.4 dish and the tech will only need 2 lines from the dish to the ground block, and then 2 lines + 1 for your OTA From the Ground block to the central cable location. Switch is built into the 1000.4 LNB. If the 1000.4 is not capable of running 118.7 on the IN port, then they will need 4 Lines (3 From 1000.4, 1 From 118.7) to the ground block and 4 Lines + 1 for OTA to the central cable location. This setup would require a DPP44 switch at the central location. The OTA antenna could be diplexed on a SAT line from the ground block to the main tie in point in the basement, but I would highly recommend a separate line as each Diplexer causes about 2 dB of signal loss on the VHF/UHF side. I would also recommend, unless you have really stong local channels, to diplex the SAT and TV2 lines and put the OTA on the second line you are fishing. Any diplexers/splitters/etc necessary should be included with the installation. Feel free to ask if you have anymore questions.

 

[garys]

Some installers consider wiring cable and/or ota as extra work and may or may not do it or may want to be paid extra for it. You shoud check with the installer first.

 

[codee]

AFAIK (and I'm not in a 1000.4 market so I'm not positive about this) the 118.7 dish will run to the IN port on the 1000.4 dish and the tech will only need 2 lines from the dish to the ground block, and then 2 lines + 1 for your OTA From the Ground block to the central cable location. Switch is built into the 1000.4 LNB. If the 1000.4 is not capable of running 118.7 on the IN port, then they will need 4 Lines (3 From 1000.4, 1 From 118.7) to the ground block and 4 Lines + 1 for OTA to the central cable location. This setup would require a DPP44 switch at the central location. The OTA antenna could be diplexed on a SAT line from the ground block to the main tie in point in the basement, but I would highly recommend a separate line as each Diplexer causes about 2 dB of signal loss on the VHF/UHF side. I would also recommend, unless you have really stong local channels, to diplex the SAT and TV2 lines and put the OTA on the second line you are fishing. Any diplexers/splitters/etc necessary should be included with the installation. Feel free to ask if you have anymore questions.

Thanks for the tip on the diplexers causing signal loss - i'm used to a 2way splitter causing a 3.5db loss in the cable world but didnt even take that into consideration for the OTA antenna.

I will try to confirm that wind dish working off of the in port on the 1000.4 setup, as it will affect the number of lines i run tonight. Each 722 would only need 2 lines correct? (1 for the sat/TV2, and one for OTA?) Then one to eaach TV to backfeed to of course...I wish there was a EASY way to broadcast the TV 2 feed and incorporate it into the Cable DVRs. We (comcast) do that in MDUs that have door entry systems with cameras, etc but that equipment is expensive :-/

So, just to be sure i'm understanding correctly, the OTA can't be diplexed in until the housebox at a minimum correct? Ideally it will have its own feed all the way to the recievers of course. Is that due to the grounding of the dish? I'm not familiar with the NEC for satellites...

Thanks for the help!

 

[codee]

Some installers consider wiring cable and/or ota as extra work and may or may not do it or may want to be paid extra for it. You shoud check with the installer first.

Yeah, I took that into consideration but the techs around here are pretty much always corporate. Also, I will have all the jacks/lines for the recieves and TV2 ran before hand aside from the lines from the housebox to the dishes themself which the tech is more then welcome to use for the install. Should he not want to do the OTA or wing dish, well.....then I'm sorry but all those lines convniently in place are needed for something else so he'll have to run all of his own. I'm thinkin we won't have much of a problem

 

[PBX_Guy]

It's not expected, but if you feel that the tech does a good job, give the guy a small tip, ie $10 or so. Like your own counterparts, these guys are working for peanuts, but holding down a job rather than living off welfare. If you feel he/she really goes above & beyond for you, raise that amount as you feel is appropriate.

I do not believe that the satellite tech is obligated to connect your OTA for you nor furnish said hardware, tho many will if asked. The Holland DP2 diplexers they carry for doing dual room backfeeds from a 722 or 222 also work well as OTA diplexers. Yes, there is a small insertion loss, though it's generally negligible.

Something I've noticed that sat installers frequently do not do is properly tighten the connectors or use any type of weatherproofing outside (ie, silicone grease on the threads or boots at the ground block). Just because sat installers aren't fighting with inband signal ingress doesn't mean Finger-tight is OK. It's not OK.

Similarly when grounding, some installers may not ground the dish or drive in a proper (per NEC Article 250.52) 8' ground rod when the utility entrance ground is not conveniently nearby. Clamping onto your hose bib when your plumbing is PEX or PVC is also not a proper method of grounding. Claiming they don't have a ground rod on the truck doesn't excuse the fact that it's still a jobsite requirement (as well as a requirement of their training). It's not being unreasonable to expect the job to be done right. Never sign their completion order if anything is left outstanding. Once you sign, they're gone.

 

[PBX_Guy]

So, just to be sure i'm understanding correctly, the OTA can't be diplexed in until the housebox at a minimum correct? Ideally it will have its own feed all the way to the recievers of course. Is that due to the grounding of the dish? I'm not familiar with the NEC for satellites...

I cannot think of any valid reason not to diplex-in your OTA with one of the outside sat feeds. There is no RF signal conflict. That will get it into the home node (house box) but then you're still going to have to split it up and distribute to the other TVs. Bringing you OTA in on a separate Coax is usually the best way to do it, however, particularly since you plan to backfeed from the DVR(s).

Backfeeding (and even backfeeding + OTA superimposed) only requires one single coax run to each receiver, not two as you're planning, unless you'll be keeping the cable feed and would like to bring that in to the TVs as well. CATV would of course need to be directly connected to the TVs through an antenna input (or via set top box to a separate/switchable input on the TV)

Curious why as a cable employee you'd be getting satellite? Perhaps it's true what I hear, that Comcast is despised by everyone

 

[Agonizing Fury]

Ummm, if they work for DNS they won't drive ground rods. We're not allowed. Not only that, but just driving an 8' ground rod in the ground does not count as a valid ground in most areas (and it's a great way to set up a ground loop). I know around here, and addition ground rods have to be back bonded to the original house ground with #6 copper. If the job can't be properly grounded to an existing NEC approved ground, we don't do it. The customer may reschedule a job and have a qualified electrician install an additional ground rod where required for the install.

The TV2 signal is an Agile modulated output and can be set for any cable channel from 73 - 125 (skipping some channels in the 90s for some reason), so it should be able to be integrated into your cable for your TV2s. I have done this quite often using a simple splitter as a combiner.

The reason I recommend seperate lines, is that he is already pulling the lines. No more difficult to add one more when you're already pulling them. If he were to diplex the OTA line with a Sat feed from outside, He would have a diplexer outside, one at the tie in point, then a 2 way splitter, then another diplexer to tie it into the line going to the receiver, another two way splitter used as a combiner for the TV2/OTA), then another diplexer at the receiver, as well as another two way used as a combiner for TV2/OTA . Depending on the quality of the diplexers and splitters used at this point, you're looking at a signal loss of 15-20dB. That's not accounting for any cable losses along the way. That's pretty significant, even if you're using an amp somwhere. Not only that but if his antenna has a pre-amp in it, he'll have to run a sperate line from wherever the power inserter is anyways.

 

[codee]

I cannot think of any valid reason not to diplex-in your OTA with one of the outside sat feeds. There is no RF signal conflict. That will get it into the home node (house box) but then you're still going to have to split it up and distribute to the other TVs. Bringing you OTA in on a separate Coax is usually the best way to do it, however, particularly since you plan to backfeed from the DVR(s).

Backfeeding (and even backfeeding + OTA superimposed) only requires one single coax run to each receiver, not two as you're planning, unless you'll be keeping the cable feed and would like to bring that in to the TVs as well. CATV would of course need to be directly connected to the TVs through an antenna input (or via set top box to a separate/switchable input on the TV)

Curious why as a cable employee you'd be getting satellite? Perhaps it's true what I hear, that Comcast is despised by everyone

I get Comcast for free, so I'll still have the HDDVRs on most the tvs, and regular digital boxes on the remaining but I just like some of the HD programming on dish that Comcast doesnt carry along with the Sirius music channels. I also like the expandability of the DVRs for more storage.

So for about $100, I get Dish top 250 plus platinum HD, 2 VIP722s, every channel comcast offers aside from PPV, 4 Motorol HDDVRs, 2 regular digital boxes, and 50meg down, 10 meg up internet....not too shabby

 

[codee]

It's not expected, but if you feel that the tech does a good job, give the guy a small tip, ie $10 or so. Like your own counterparts, these guys are working for peanuts, but holding down a job rather than living off welfare. If you feel he/she really goes above & beyond for you, raise that amount as you feel is appropriate.

I do not believe that the satellite tech is obligated to connect your OTA for you nor furnish said hardware, tho many will if asked. The Holland DP2 diplexers they carry for doing dual room backfeeds from a 722 or 222 also work well as OTA diplexers. Yes, there is a small insertion loss, though it's generally negligible.

Something I've noticed that sat installers frequently do not do is properly tighten the connectors or use any type of weatherproofing outside (ie, silicone grease on the threads or boots at the ground block). Just because sat installers aren't fighting with inband signal ingress doesn't mean Finger-tight is OK. It's not OK.

Similarly when grounding, some installers may not ground the dish or drive in a proper (per NEC Article 250.52) 8' ground rod when the utility entrance ground is not conveniently nearby. Clamping onto your hose bib when your plumbing is PEX or PVC is also not a proper method of grounding. Claiming they don't have a ground rod on the truck doesn't excuse the fact that it's still a jobsite requirement (as well as a requirement of their training). It's not being unreasonable to expect the job to be done right. Never sign their completion order if anything is left outstanding. Once you sign, they're gone.

I'm not sure what the installers for Dish make, but if its like my counterparts its not peanuts as far as im concerned lol. BUT, that being said i already stopped and got cash for the tech for a tip. I don't do many actual installs anymore, I mainly do escalations, chronic trouble calls, mainline stuff, etc but when I did installs there was nothin worse then taking the time to do a VERY nice looking install only to have the person push you out the door. I always tip service people they deserve it regardless if its Dish, a delivery guy from lowes, someone working on the furnace, etc - its just a good courtesy in my opinion.

What sticks out with me though, is many times it was the people that looked like they didnt have much extra to give in the first place that go out of their way to make sure they let you know they appreciate it. The ones in the $750,000+ homes dont appreciate anything - they just EXPECT it. Which is ok too, I get paid $XX a hour to perform my job. I just like to offer some gratitude to people...


And I cringe when I walk upto a fitting and it wasnt tightened with a 7/16ths wrench....and I agree, it almsot never is on the gb for sat. There may not be ingress/egress issues but you can still get water in the drop and cause problems! I tighten dish/direct fittings all too often in the field it seems.

And my bonding point is very accessible. I'm huge on grounding - I have 17 techs on my team I am responsible for, and I inspect 5 of each of their jobs every month. If the drop isn't grounded/bonded correctly is a automatic fail.

Thanks for the tip on signing the work order too!

 

[kb7oeb]

The TV2 signal is an Agile modulated output and can be set for any cable channel from 73 - 125 (skipping some channels in the 90s for some reason)

95-99 are VHF frequencies between channel 6 and 7, the Dish modulator only does UHF frequencies.

 

[PBX_Guy]

I get Comcast for free, so I'll still have the HDDVRs on most the tvs, and regular digital boxes on the remaining but I just like some of the HD programming on dish that Comcast doesnt carry along with the Sirius music channels. I also like the expandability of the DVRs for more storage.

So for about $100, I get Dish top 250 plus platinum HD, 2 VIP722s, every channel comcast offers aside from PPV, 4 Motorol HDDVRs, 2 regular digital boxes, and 50meg down, 10 meg up internet....not too shabby

No, not too shabby if we overlook your electric bill

OT but Sirius/XM on the other hand is in some serious financial trouble w/their stock circling the drain and a huge multi-megabuck obligation coming due in February I believe. The purpose of most mergers is to combine duplicative efforts and reduce operating costs. Unfortunately for Sirius/XM that plan backfired as their technologies are such that dual uplinks & separate distribution systems will need to be maintained. They've laid off some people & changed some channels around, further irritating an already fragile subscriber base. Bottom line, I don't look for them to be around much longer.