New HWH efficiency rules

[navychop]

The word for the day is: NAECA
Pronounced "OMG, my wallet!"

As of April 2015, new standards kick in. For example, your old electric 80 gallon water heater had to be 86% efficient. NOW, it must convert not 86% of the electric energy into hot water, but 197%! Not a typo! One hundred ninety seven percent of the electric energy must be converted into hot water!

Do you know what that means? It means no more electric resistance HWHs. On top of the new electric HWHs is a heat pump.

And do you know what THAT means? The price of that electric water heater just more or less tripled.

See www.rheem.com/products/water_heating/NAECA/

Go gas! Oh, those have to be more efficient, too. And their price.....

Time to SERIOUSLY consider NG tankless water heaters.

 

[jayn_j]

OK, I don't understand. >100% efficiency? Did the inventor get the Nobel prize for developing the first working perpetual motion machine?

 

[navychop]

OK, I don't understand. >100% efficiency? Did the inventor get the Nobel prize for developing the first working perpetual motion machine?

No, the guy who defined what "100%" efficiency meant for electricity "got away with it." 100% in this case means conversion of all the electric energy into resistive heating. So heat pumps "move" heat, and use the juice more effectively than just "burning" it.

People are going to just LOVE IT when they need to replace their water heaters, especially electric ones.

 

[osu1991]

I'll switch to Natural Gas at the lake when the time comes. I prefer NG but the electric one out there is fairly new, so hopefully that will be a few years away. Just replaced the gas one in my home last year.

 

[navychop]

MUCH I have learned
We cannot replace our current 75 gal HWH with another similar unit. We MIGHT be able to get a smaller one -OR- get a new one that meets the regs. But over 50 gallons it must be "condensing." Physically larger. More expensive. Might not fit. IF such could be found.

Puts us, for all practical purposes, into a gas tankless. With our size house, we need a larger, condensing type.

The good news is, it will be 96% efficient, rather than roughly 53%.

The bad news is, they can't reuse the current vent. They will have to mount it on the front wall, over the dryer, and put a vent thru the wall. AND might have to replace the window with a non-opening one.

The good news is, they have to run the gas line by the dryer anyway, so the added tap to allow for a gas dryer is trivial.

Good for resale value, as folks learn about conventional HWHs essentially going away. Real shock will be to folks with no gas.

In the wider world, replacement units of equivalent capacity will be physically larger, and may not fit, so folks will be pushed to downsize or go tankless. Since storage (tank) units have become so expensive, the price difference to tankless is much less, so tankless will become very common.

 

[klang]

Puts us, for all practical purposes, into a gas tankless.

Do you have a water softener? When we picked tankless for the previous house the builder very strongly urged a water softener. Otherwise you will likely have more maintenance on the tankless heater.

 

[navychop]

The likely units have scale detectors and tell you if you ever need to flush. Rinnai.

Our water is probably around 9, so hardness is not likely a factor. But I am considering getting a test, to be sure.

There's stuff on the Internet about modern tankless not likely ever needing a flush unless your water is 11 or greater. But then, there's stuff on the Internet about asteroids hitting laminator repairmen on earth. Oh, wait, ...... . .

 

[Bob Haller]

The word for the day is: NAECA
Pronounced "OMG, my wallet!"

As of April 2015, new standards kick in. For example, your old electric 80 gallon water heater had to be 86% efficient. NOW, it must convert not 86% of the electric energy into hot water, but 197%! Not a typo! One hundred ninety seven percent of the electric energy must be converted into hot water!

Do you know what that means? It means no more electric resistance HWHs. On top of the new electric HWHs is a heat pump.

And do you know what THAT means? The price of that electric water heater just more or less tripled.

See www.rheem.com/products/water_heating/NAECA/

Go gas! Oh, those have to be more efficient, too. And their price.....

Time to SERIOUSLY consider NG tankless water heaters.

existing electric water hearers were always 98% efficent or close to it. you cant do much better than 100%

navy? are you serious? most existing electric water heaters already meet the new standards, most they will need is a extra inch of insulation

oversized gas heaters will need upgrades, mostly added insulation and a more efficent burner / flue

perhaps the feds need to require longer warranteed lives for all products. for water heaters require non magnetic stainless, 20 year minimum life?

 

[navychop]

existing electric water hearers were always 98% efficent or close to it. you cant do much better than 100%

navy? are you serious? most existing electric water heaters already meet the new standards, most they will need is a extra inch of insulation

oversized gas heaters will need upgrades, mostly added insulation and a more efficent burner / flue

perhaps the feds need to require longer warranteed lives for all products. for water heaters require non magnetic stainless, 20 year minimum life?

Look at the link in post #1. No electric standard has ever been 98%.

Yes, you CAN get better than 100% because for electric 100% is defined as 100% conversion of electricity into heat. Ever have your home heating revert to resistance heating mode, and gone outside to watch how wildly spinning your meter was going? Electric resistance heating is terrible, for your house and for your hot water. That's why the new regs for larger HWHs requires, in effect, little heat pumps. Much more costly up front, not sure if there is ever a payback.

It is impossible to meet the large HWH standards with resistance heating. Once again, READ THE LINK BEFORE POSTING BS!

Those improvements to gas storage HWHs are pushing up their price, making tankless, which require no further improvements to meet code (better brands), more attractive. Heck, just go look at the price of the unit you suggested I consider: WAY more expensive than a tankless.

Sorry to be rude, but your outdated BS is misleading people: How many decades ago did you stop learning new things?

 

[Bobby]

Sorry to be rude, but your outdated BS is misleading people: How many decades ago did you stop learning new things?

When he thought he was going to die in a meteor crash. There was no reason to look beyond that event. Oh wait!

 

[TheKrell]

The bad news is, they can't reuse the current vent.

Why not? I also have a 75 gallon NG water heater a little over 10yo, and it has an enormous 4" PVC pipe for a flue going sideways out the side of my house.

 

[navychop]

Maybe they could use yours. Mine is galvanized, straight up thru the level above and out the roof.

Still might get an estimate and further explanation this week.

 

[navychop]

Just read Noritz brand "might" be able to use my current venting. That would be a major plus, if accurate. So much contradictory info on the net.

 

[Bob Haller]

Amazon product ASIN B0062OABE8
now this water heater is electric, its annual electric cost 200 bucks

existing electrics around 600 bucks

so this heater saves 400 bucks a year in electric

over a 10 year life expectancy it will save more $ than it cost

400 bucks times 10 years is 4 grand