Poll: Dish Turnover

[Larry]

I've been with E* since almost the beginning...since '96 or '97. It's hard to remember not having Dish. But, I have been giving serious thought to making a switch. I have two HDTVs with an 811 connected to one and a 921 connected to the other. I still backup my program timers on my 721 because I can't trust the 921, but in my case the performance of the receivers is not the major problem. Yes, they have their bugs...but there are workarounds for most problems. (Although, after a year in service there is no excuse for having to still use workarounds and I should be able to trust a receiver that cost almost $1000.) Nor is the upcoming price increase a problem. I don't have to like it, but I can accept it.

The main problem is the lack of HD content and the impending change to MPEG-4. Since there will be little or no change in the HD programming until MPEG-4 is adopted (meaning I'll have to upgrade my receivers yet again), it's time to look around. D* has virtually the same problem (high upgrade cost plus the need to upgrade to MPEG-4 eventually). Fortunately for me, there are two local cable companies in my area. Both are offering more "compelling" HDTV content than E* (including local channels in HD that E* can't offer due to bandwidth restrictions)...although cable has it's problems as well (poor pq on analog channels for one).

I do not take "jumping ship" lightly. This will not be an easy decision.

A Message to Dish Network: Take a close look at how many of your "upper tier" customers are lining the railings of the ship and getting ready to jump. We have been with you for years. We have not played the "churn" game. We have upgraded our equipment frequently at our own expense to become beta testers of inadequate software and of hardware that doesn't work as advertised...but we DID remain your customers. What you appear to be offering us is "more of the same" and this is becoming more and more unacceptable.

 

[waltinvt]

I've been with E* since almost the beginning...since '96 or '97. It's hard to remember not having Dish. But, I have been giving serious thought to making a switch. I have two HDTVs with an 811 connected to one and a 921 connected to the other. I still backup my program timers on my 721 because I can't trust the 921, but in my case the performance of the receivers is not the major problem. Yes, they have their bugs...but there are workarounds for most problems. (Although, after a year in service there is no excuse for having to still use workarounds and I should be able to trust a receiver that cost almost $1000.) Nor is the upcoming price increase a problem. I don't have to like it, but I can accept it.

The main problem is the lack of HD content and the impending change to MPEG-4. Since there will be little or no change in the HD programming until MPEG-4 is adopted (meaning I'll have to upgrade my receivers yet again), it's time to look around. D* has virtually the same problem (high upgrade cost plus the need to upgrade to MPEG-4 eventually). Fortunately for me, there are two local cable companies in my area. Both are offering more "compelling" HDTV content than E* (including local channels in HD that E* can't offer due to bandwidth restrictions)...although cable has it's problems as well (poor pq on analog channels for one).

I do not take "jumping ship" lightly. This will not be an easy decision.

A Message to Dish Network: Take a close look at how many of your "upper tier" customers are lining the railings of the ship and getting ready to jump. We have been with you for years. We have not played the "churn" game. We have upgraded our equipment frequently at our own expense to become beta testers of inadequate software and of hardware that doesn't work as advertised...but we DID remain your customers. What you appear to be offering us is "more of the same" and this is becoming more and more unacceptable.

Very similar to my situation and I couldn't begin to express it any better - well said.
It's mind boggleing that "E" is letting this happen but apparently it is.

Side note:
For all you out there getting ready to jump, beware of what some of the people at Dish's "Executive Offices" tell you to get you to stay.
They jerked me around for 2 weeks, implying things that never materialized, basically outright lied and finially, in the end, conceeded they had been told they could do nothing. (I'm a $125 avg per month customer for over 8 years too).

 

[rdlink]

A Message to Dish Network: Take a close look at how many of your "upper tier" customers are lining the railings of the ship and getting ready to jump. We have been with you for years. We have not played the "churn" game. We have upgraded our equipment frequently at our own expense to become beta testers of inadequate software and of hardware that doesn't work as advertised...but we DID remain your customers. What you appear to be offering us is "more of the same" and this is becoming more and more unacceptable.

Basically the same thing I told the DISH CSR when I called to cancel my $100 a month subscription yesterday. He started down the road of asking me questions aimed at ascertaining whether I'd be interested in staying. I told him he was wasting his time. I gave DISH many opportunities to keep my business, including a long letter to ceo@echostar.com a couple of weeks ago telling him that I was leaving, and to contact me if they wanted to keep my business.

Let's face it. E* has become that bad, abusive girlfriend that doesn't take you seriously unless you actually walk out of the door. Remember what got us to buy satellite in the first place? Poor service, floundering technological improvements, high prices and indifference to the customer's concerns from our cable companies. Well, cable has apparently gotten the message that was being sent to them by the flood of customers running to DISH. Comcast has out-DISHed E* here in my community.

Charlie's problem is that he can't afford to bleed customers very long. The more customer base he loses, the less money he'll have to invest in infrastructure, unless he continues to raise rates, which will cost him more subscribers. If he doesn't invest the money in infrastructure he'll continue to lose customers. That's why customer service should be Job One at E* right now. But it's not.

 

[DRGingras]

Like Foxbat and others, I'd love to send Charlie a message by voting in this poll - but there's no choice for my vote either.

Right before the holidays, I began preparations to switch to D*. At that time, the only remaining benefit in staying with E* was the handfull of RF remotes being used for backfed TV's and remote box locations. And, the lack of NBR for my 721 convinced me that I really wanted DirecTivo. In anticipation of a change, I began installing a whole-house IR system.

Then the MPEG-4 thing came up. Couple this with the rumors of a change in the relationship between Directv and Tivo, and things got a little more complicated for me. This is just TV, it just should not be this complicated!

For the forseeable future, I plan to reduce my E* sub to bare minimum (1 box, HD pack only), use cable (no investment, no commitment) for the balance of our viewing needs, and sit back and wait.

Even though I didn't vote, I've still got a message for Charlie: My monthly sub with you just went from over $80 to less than $20. I'm comparing cable to your service. Directv is already giving timeframes and plans for the MPEG-4 conversion. It's your move now!

Dave

 

[Stacy A]

I didn't see an option that fit me. I am seriously considering switching, but I cannot do so until my two year agreement is up next February (2006). I went ahead and picked "staying with Dish" although it does not accurately reflect my situation. I got in on the free 510 promotion in return for a two year agreement. As it stands now, I will be switching as soon as my agreement expires, but given that both Dish and DirectTV have some ambitious plans this year, I'm hoping I will be in a good position come next February. However, to register my dissatisfaction (particularly over the sub increase) I will be lowering my programming. They will not get $120+ from me per month anymore.

 

[wmhjr]

Switched to cable

Had Dish for a long time. Got cable installed after my disgust with the 921 and Dish support. Can't believe I waited so long to switch. The only return call I EVER got from Dish is three days after I cancelled my service. Then, they called to find out if $4.98 month discount would keep me! They tried to debate, but were fighting with grossly out of date information and really only wasted their time.

 

[BobMurdoch]

Basically the same thing I told the DISH CSR when I called to cancel my $100 a month subscription yesterday. He started down the road of asking me questions aimed at ascertaining whether I'd be interested in staying. I told him he was wasting his time. I gave DISH many opportunities to keep my business, including a long letter to ceo@echostar.com a couple of weeks ago telling him that I was leaving, and to contact me if they wanted to keep my business.

Let's face it. E* has become that bad, abusive girlfriend that doesn't take you seriously unless you actually walk out of the door. Remember what got us to buy satellite in the first place? Poor service, floundering technological improvements, high prices and indifference to the customer's concerns from our cable companies. Well, cable has apparently gotten the message that was being sent to them by the flood of customers running to DISH. Comcast has out-DISHed E* here in my community.

Charlie's problem is that he can't afford to bleed customers very long. The more customer base he loses, the less money he'll have to invest in infrastructure, unless he continues to raise rates, which will cost him more subscribers. If he doesn't invest the money in infrastructure he'll continue to lose customers. That's why customer service should be Job One at E* right now. But it's not.

The problem is that for the FIRST time in their history their percentage of net subscriber adds INCREASED last year. (since they started in 96.... 86%, 76%, 54%, 30%, 20% 15.2% and now 15.6% in 2004. As far as Charlie sees it there is no mass exodus..... he is making up whatever small churn there is by sgning new people from Costco and Radio Shack among others.

As much as we would love to see this grand display of consumer anger it isn't manifesting itself in the numbers. And don't flame me..... I want them to beef up their competitive offerings but the crisis simply isn't showng up in the numbers only the perception.

 

[brian]

I just switch to Cox.. got their HD DVR (moto 6412), which works very well.. did I mentioned NBR?! PQ is much better.. no pixelation on digital channels. amazingly the analog channels even look better than dish. Dish's channels were so over compressed that they looked like bad internet feeds, especially the Tulsa locals. Cox's Customer service isn't much better than Dish, but that isn't surprising.

 

[Grandude]

I haven't crunched the numbers yet to see if it would be cost effective to switch to Comcast cable. What I have done is added Comcast basic plus a HD box to my system so that I can get locals in HD. This added $20/month to my TV/entertainment bill.
So far I am so pleased with the basic HD cable that I am for the first time in over 10 years considering dropping Dish. I just wish I didn't have so much tied up in Dish hardware.
Comcast just added a little icing on the cake by adding FOX HD to the lineup so now I can watch the superbowl in HD. Something that Dish can't do for me and many in the boonies.
It would appear to me that Dish is more concerned about quantity than quality. This in customer support, hardware, programming, and everything else they do.

 

[wmhjr]

Don't see it.

Seems to me that a gradual dump from 86% down to 15.2% - and then a *very* slight bump of 0.4% - is not a real increase. What would be a far more interesting statistic is the number of people abandoning Dish. In other words, percentage of lost renewalls - not just an overall number. That's much more of an important trend to me. Tells me about the future.

The problem is that for the FIRST time in their history their percentage of net subscriber adds INCREASED last year. (since they started in 96.... 86%, 76%, 54%, 30%, 20% 15.2% and now 15.6% in 2004. As far as Charlie sees it there is no mass exodus..... he is making up whatever small churn there is by sgning new people from Costco and Radio Shack among others.

As much as we would love to see this grand display of consumer anger it isn't manifesting itself in the numbers. And don't flame me..... I want them to beef up their competitive offerings but the crisis simply isn't showng up in the numbers only the perception.

 

[Zookster]

I got my first Hdtv two months ago, and did major research (including this site) to decide if I'd stay with E* for HD service. I actually had an appointment scheduled with VOOM in late Dec., but started having second thoughts due to some of the problems I read about their service, installations, billing, and dim future, so I went with a "Dishn' it Up" deal for the 811, figuring I'd give either E* a year to get their HD act together or see if VOOM will still be around, improve service, and offer a DVR. So, at least until Jan. 06, I'm staying with E*. I also considered Cox Cable, but I would pay much more for about the same amount of HD, and PQ is really bad on analog channels.

 

[BobMurdoch]

My point was that they had any increase in the percentage growth rate was interesting.

Actually, it is typical for any new industry. Look at satellite radio which is in the early stages as well. Sirius doubled its subscribers last year. Anyone think they will double their subscribers in 2010 vs. 2009? Once they get bigger the chances for growth drop as the percentage of growth gets harder to maintain. (Which is why large cap stocks rarely move as quickly up in price as their smaller cap brethren..... that's where you see some of those eyepopping 1000% increases)

The rarity is for a "mature" industry like satellite to start growing faster. There were a few changes this year that helped the boost, most notably the addition of Radio Shack, Costco, and Walmart to the distribution channel for E*. The fact that they had ANY increase is cause for celebration on E*'s part. ESPECIALLY in the face of massive HD equipment shortages and bad reliability word of mouth. It means they are adding many more of the 301s then the higher end receivers we argue over.

Bottom line, they are still adding over a million+ subscribers a year. Not as many as D* though so their market share is still shrinking, but they are not in any dnager of going anywhere. Meanwhile, cable keeps hemorraging viewers as they keep trying to argue that VOD is their great savior (meanwhile most of us yawn and keep using our PVRs to make them moot). Plus EVERYTHING comes out on DVD nowadays (even the TV shows) so why pay to watch a show once when you can own it.

As for your statement about renewals, the number is called "churn" and it is still at a rate 5 times less than Voom so there is no crisis there. Any subscribers lost are more than made up for new subscribers coming online.

Once again, not trying to defend E*, I think they have made many missteps these last two years, but there is no "crisis" when you crunch the numbers.

 

[wmhjr]

Don't agree

I understand the steep decline in the early years for the very reasons you mention. However, I believe that E* and D* has a small window to really take advantage of some vulnerabilities in the cable industry. Then, I think that renewalls really mean more. Comparisons to Voom are absolutely meaningless to me. That was a niche market that was doomed to fail from the start. Their only hope was that a) Both cable and other sat providers failed to adopt ANY HD content, and b) At some time they get acquired as a complete business unit by D* or E*. Neither happened. On their own, the numbers just didn't add up - ever. It's too bad, but that's life.

I think that cable has - in general - fought through their main weaknesses of recent years. As time passes, it will become more and more difficult for D* and E* to compete on a level playing field with cable. That's because cable can operate cheaper. Plus, cable has a really, really big advantage in that they can also provide broadband. Do I think it's fair? Not really. While the TC Act of 1996 forced copper carriers to open up their systems for use by other ISPs, cable was excluded. Obviously there are technical barriers which don't exist in DSL, but DSL has other obstacles to deal with. The bigger issue is that those same cable companies can (by law) pass on upgrade costs directly to the consumer. They don't need to build multiple uplink facilities in order to provide local HD content. E* and D* don't get the advantage of reclaiming lots of bandwidth as they transition from less analog to more digital channels. Some cable companies are further along in this process, but they're all on the same track. E* and D* need to do something really "compelling" (to use Charlies famous term) to compete, and I just can't see that happening.

Bottom line? I think Charlie in particular really missed the boat, and the renewall rates just give me an idea as to exactly when the abandon ship alarm really starts going off. Will they go out of business in the next couple years? No. But, will they be a "major" player? The sun has set.

Oh, and I'm selling my 301, two 508s, and 510. I no longer need them. You see, I get a dual tuner HD DVR with NBR (actually have three of them) and lots more programming at a lower cost than Dish. When a new model comes out, I get it upgraded for free. My units have SATA for extra storage, IEEE1394, USB, etc. I don't care about VOD either. But the rest of the stuff destroys Dish - at least in my area. There is absolutely no competition at all. Dish has not a single advantage - period. And finally, at least if I'm going to pay a "VOD" fee, there is actually a "VOD" service!

My point was that they had any increase in the percentage growth rate was interesting.

Actually, it is typical for any new industry. Look at satellite radio which is in the early stages as well. Sirius doubled its subscribers last year. Anyone think they will double their subscribers in 2010 vs. 2009? Once they get bigger the chances for growth drop as the percentage of growth gets harder to maintain. (Which is why large cap stocks rarely move as quickly up in price as their smaller cap brethren..... that's where you see some of those eyepopping 1000% increases)

The rarity is for a "mature" industry like satellite to start growing faster. There were a few changes this year that helped the boost, most notably the addition of Radio Shack, Costco, and Walmart to the distribution channel for E*. The fact that they had ANY increase is cause for celebration on E*'s part. ESPECIALLY in the face of massive HD equipment shortages and bad reliability word of mouth. It means they are adding many more of the 301s then the higher end receivers we argue over.

Bottom line, they are still adding over a million+ subscribers a year. Not as many as D* though so their market share is still shrinking, but they are not in any dnager of going anywhere. Meanwhile, cable keeps hemorraging viewers as they keep trying to argue that VOD is their great savior (meanwhile most of us yawn and keep using our PVRs to make them moot). Plus EVERYTHING comes out on DVD nowadays (even the TV shows) so why pay to watch a show once when you can own it.

As for your statement about renewals, the number is called "churn" and it is still at a rate 5 times less than Voom so there is no crisis there. Any subscribers lost are more than made up for new subscribers coming online.

Once again, not trying to defend E*, I think they have made many missteps these last two years, but there is no "crisis" when you crunch the numbers.

 

[Hall]

We had DirecTV for about three years and tried Dish because they had our locals first (9 months before D*). NO complaints about Dish other than the scenario below... Anyway, we had Dish for about three months and got an HDTV. We already had a DVR so of course now we wanted an HD-DVR. $1000.... out-of-pocket.... Hmmmm, nope.....

Got an HD-DVR from TW for $4.95/month (the package I have gets me a "discounted" rate on the DVR). The Dish retention guy put down my reason for leaving as "no HD-DVR available as lease option" and it's very accurate.

 

[GaryPen]

My Dish commitment was up a few days ago. I'm switching to Comcast with their Moto 6412 HD DVR w/ iGuide, as soon as I get back from vacation at the end of Feb.

No up front fees. $10 HD/DVR/add'l Rcvr fee. Regular cost for Digital Silver (AT180/locals/HBO equivilent) plus HD DVR is 83/mo. With the 16 month $25 discount, it's $58/mo. Same package with Dish is $87.

I'm not concerned with the Comcast bill going up after the 16 months, because I plan on switching to SBC/Dish after 6 months. Sure, I'll be back with Dish programming, which could stand some improvement. But, with the impressive looking 2Wire MediaPortal, instead of the crappy Dish gear, I'll be fine. I get all my local network HD via OTA anyway.

 

[GaryPen]

I just wish I didn't have so much tied up in Dish hardware.

Why? You can't get eBay on your PC?

 

[borivera]

I just left Dish after 8 years to go to Comcast. So far I have 2 HDDVRs with 2 tuners and everything looks great. I never thought I would ever go back to cable, but Dish has really ignored existing customers and the need to provide HDDVR equipment at a reasonable price.

 

[ghoff]

I left Dish after 4 years and went with Directv early January. The main reason I left Dish was the unreliable 811.

However, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. I am still waiting for my third replacement of the RCA DTC210 HD receiver from VE. The first 2 died with different problems. It would have been nice to watch the Superbowl in HD, like I did last year.

I wish I had gone with a local retailer so that I didn't have such a long time to wait for replacements. I have spents several weeks waiting between shipments.

 

[korsjs]

when this poll is done on 2/11, i would like to see a new one opened for those who said they where considering jumping ship in the next three months to see if they did jump ship.

 

[Sat Junkie]

I switched to Voom the beginning of January and I'm lovin' it! The E* CSR tried to tell me that Voom wouldn't be around very long and offered me a free HD receiver to stay because I had been a subscriber for 5 years. After I said no she told me that if I came back they would still charge me the $25 reactivation fee. Funny thing is after they shut off my service I was still getting about 20 religious and shopping channels. Gee, that's a third of the Americas top 60 package. 2 weeks after I shut them off I got a letter from Charlie Chat telling me that he was raising the monthly bill again!