Power supply conversion

[Dave56]

Looking to go on the road, and would really like to run a receiver off 12V directly. Doesn't make much sense to have the in motion antenna and the TV running on 12V, and have to use an inverter just for the receiver. Unless I've missed something, every receiver they put out has a 110VAC cord instead of a low voltage wall wart. I know the Joey's do, but haven't seen the main receiver that way.

I've done a fair amount of swapping parts and pieces, and burned out more soldering guns than I care to admit.

With that in mind, does anybody know where I could get a schematic on a few of the receivers to know if any of them would be eaiser / harder to swap out the 110VAC power supply for a 12VDC unit? Ideally I'd love to do it on a Hopper 3, but not tied to it.

12V would be preferred, but the PV setup is not finalized, so 24V or even 36V could be considered.

 

[sam_gordon]

Looking to go on the road, and would really like to run a receiver off 12V directly. Doesn't make much sense to have the in motion antenna and the TV running on 12V, and have to use an inverter just for the receiver. Unless I've missed something, every receiver they put out has a 110VAC cord instead of a low voltage wall wart. I know the Joey's do, but haven't seen the main receiver that way.

I've done a fair amount of swapping parts and pieces, and burned out more soldering guns than I care to admit.

With that in mind, does anybody know where I could get a schematic on a few of the receivers to know if any of them would be eaiser / harder to swap out the 110VAC power supply for a 12VDC unit? Ideally I'd love to do it on a Hopper 3, but not tied to it.

12V would be preferred, but the PV setup is not finalized, so 24V or even 36V could be considered.

Why not simply get an inverter? They're available at every truck stop and online.

 

[bookworm370]

The problem with power supplies that power more complex items like computers, receivers is that a lot of them do not just output 12V. But also 5V, -5V as well as 12V for the different sections and components. If you just open it up and find the feed plug (the output the power supply) you can disconnect it and put a VOM across ground and each of the pins. If you only read 12V then you could be OK, other than the fact that the power supplies also regulate the power as well, while direct 12V could fluctuate. But if you read any voltages other then 12V then inverter!

 

[arlo]

Normally I'd give it a thumbs up. Unless you have a receiver with an external power supply or one you can open and probe the power points. Pure sine wave inverters are probably the way to go. Good ones like for solar installs are very power efficient. They will be a bit more expensive than truck stop junk or wally world ones. They're not power hogs and with a real sine wave versus modified sine wave, your electronics will be happy. Think something like Renogy or Tripp Lite if your pockets are deep.

 

[Dave56]

Yes, I can always go inverter, and they are fairly efficient now. But there are a number of computer power supplies that run on 12VDC instead of 110VAC, so the +5 and -5 shouldn't be a problem. Bad part is I don't have a Hopper 3 right now to tear into. I had a couple of old 722k's around, but went and got ambitious and cleaned out a bunch of stuff. I have several battery back up units that the batteries have died and could be used to provide the 110VAC as well.

Have looked up a couple of electronics repair placed nearby, and they will get called next week to see if they have any power supply info for the Hopper3.

Really bad part, is I happened to meet up with a Dish corporate person back when they were taking over Boost, and pointed out that they sell an RV package, and the only thing in it that doesn't run off of 12V is their receiver. She had to think on it before she admitted I was right, and was going to pass that on to the engineers. But we all know how well that usually goes.

 

[arlo]

Normally I'd give it a thumbs up. Unless you have a receiver with an external power supply or one you can open and probe the power points. Pure sine wave inverters are probably the way to go. Good ones like for solar installs are very power efficient. They will be a bit more expensive than truck stop junk or wally world ones. They're not power hogs and with a real sine wave versus modified sine wave, your electronics will be happy. Think something like Renogy or Tripp Lite if your pockets are deep.

Dave. I went over your response. Let's look at a few things. I have a torn apart Dish receiver in my donor board bin.
It looks like the separate internal power supply has +12 VDC output and +5 VDC output to the board.
My Sony TV has an external power supply brick and its output is 24 VDC.
My laptop power supply, as most laptops, has an 18 VDC output on the barrel plug.
Cable modem
Router
8 port Ethernet switch
OsMio4k
Fire TV
Roku.....
They all take 12 VDC from wall warts. I currently have a Mean Well 120 volt mains to 12 VDC switching power supply. With a terminal strip. Sourced all of the correct barrel connector pigtails. All of the 6 devices run off the single power supply. It's a good one with all of the safety features. I've fused the terminal strip, because that's what you have to do. Not so expensive but a bit of a pita finding the right pigtails. I had to buy bags of 5 for a few.

My friend came in from Arizona. His RV has 2-185 watt solar panels mounted on the roof. A Renogy charge controller and Renogy off grid inverter. 2 storage batteries.
He said after a full charge (which occurs around noon). He can run his tv, satellite, lights, laptop, occasional water pump for a shower. Wifey can use her hair dryer (on low). Nuke a few TV dinners on TV dinner nights. And as far as he said he knows. Never exhausted the batteries. There's a display showing system health and an app on his phone with warnings if batteries get low. As well as if something goes south.

We got talking. Installed 2 more batteries. Just because he had the room in the outside cubby hole.
He's taking stats. Which the Renogy system does well. All batteries are charged by around 2pm. Maybe a little later on a cloudy day.
He's quadrupled his run time. Or, as he said, "Doesn't have to stay on top of what he can run and how long."
What am I getting at? UPS supplies are grossly inefficient. They go balls-out if your power goes off.

I put 2 more external batteries on my garage APC Back Ups 1500 watt UPS. It surely didn't make it last twice as long if the juice goes out. And on REC, that happens more than I'd like. I'm glad I put my solar install in.

By the time you get stuff together. Buck, boost converters, regulators, parts. Just YouTube 12 volt high efficiency solar inverters (my friend's system is 24 volt). It may change your mind. Hopefully this will give you a bit of insight.

 

[Dave56]

Arlo, I appreciate the information. Do you know what receiver that power supply came out of?

For me, this is going to be a small van conversion, so my roof space for PV is limited as well as battery space. Back when I had a 722k go bad, I played with it before it went to the scrap bin, and I thought it was just 12+ and 5+, but that's been a while and it was a 722 not a Hopper 3.

Most deices today run 12+ and 5+ with the occasional 5- tossed in. But with no hard info on the Hopper power supply I am swinging in the dark. And sure enough, I go planning on that, and Dish will decide to reinvent the wheel on the Hopper 3 PSU. This is still in the pencil and paper stage, just trying to figure out my options. You would think with Dish putting together an RV package, they would at least have their own equipment that would run on 12V. Especially when you are looking at the in motion antenna.

 

[bookworm370]

If all that's really required is +12 and +5, a pretty simple 12 regulated power supply and a small board that you can cobble up with a 5V regulator chip and a couple of resistors can supply both +12 and regulated +5. Now, as to what the current requirements would be, you'd have to put an ammeter on each line with it running to see what the draws would be under each condition.

Again, going to a high quality inverter might just be your best bet.

 

[arlo]

It's been awhile. I do not know the model of the board. I usually toss the enclosures. I do know It came with a Joey.
I'm not so sure you're going to want to break the security sticker (can't remember if they have them) on a new receiver to peek at the inside. But, who knows.
The one I have has a 6 pin connector. A yellow and red wire and the rest black. So no worries on +/- rails.

Most of the RV's I see have inverters. Some are piddly ones. I really don't like doing "dirty" jobs. A proper buck/boost converter would not even be an option to exclude. You're not going to want to feed 13.8-14.2 VDC into a rail that is normally powered with a flat, regulated 12 VDC or a simple 7805 regulator to provide 5 VDC. I mean, you can.
The internal receiver board regs and mosfets probably wouldn't be so happy.

It sounds like you may be on a budget. The first thing I ask my clients when they ponder me doing work for them.
Battery space could be maximized if you opted lithium technology. Plus checking for acid spits/corrosion on your nice camper would disappear. You could almost put 2 decent, high capacity batteries and an inverter in space of a single lead acid battery. You'll probably need a charge controller also.
I am a lot like you. And understand your project. I'm trying to steer you away from doing it the....can't seem to find a term for it....way.
My buddy can be 100% off grid. Much more so now. He was kind of psyched to see a pro-solar person in the sea of nay-sayers. I guess we showed them. "Cloudy days". You can still get a nasty sunburn on one of them.
In your OP you mentioned that you'd "only" need 120 VAC to run the receiver. What about charging a laptop and stuff like that?
I'm trying to steer you the way it should really be done. You'll thank me.

 

[Dave56]

Hey guys, sorry for the long time between posts, but had some major vehicle issues to deal with.

Something I neglected to include in the start of this, is the vehicle I'm planning will alternate between being driven for a few days, and then being pulled behind another vehicle being delivered for a few days.

With a fair amount of research over the last year, I have worked out nearly all of my electrical needs to either 12V+ or 5V+. The one most have a problem with is their laptops, but HP has a dual power supply available that operates from 110VAC or 12VDC ( either 12v power point or airplane connector ) Refrigeration can be either peltier or 12V compressor.

The AC will run on an inverter, but it would only be used when driving the vehicle, not towing it. The Dish would need to operate both when driving or when it's being towed. These two modes would be alternating and several days in length. The need to keep the in motion recording opperational while the vehicle is being towed across the country side for several days necessitates the asking about the 12V power supply.

My other alternate is to base the dish at some physical location and access the recordings remotely, but that will eat up a fair amount of mobile data, and not an ideal solution.

 

[arlo]

Oh no. You're not going to be able to keep a signal moving. Just bumping a stationary dish will drop signal.
And the mobile dishes are meant to automatically find a satellite once you stop and level the rig. Plus from what I've seen the dish itself is smaller than ones for home fixed installs. I'd say scratch that one.
You could get probably the most mobile coverage with a Jetpack type of mobile data device. Place it in an optimal location. Verizon would give you the best coverage, but there will be dead spots. You're asking for a lot.
Did I mention Starlink? But again. That translates into $$$, but with no data caps.
Peletier devices are like the most inefficient methods of cooling. Terribly inefficient. The worse. Like using a D-10 to dig a flower bed. Skycraft surplus had stacks of 6X6" peletier coolers. A demo unit running off of a 12V supply pulling something like 10-15 amps. Besides the heat of the hot junction. The power supply was blowing its own share. Cool? Yeah, sure. Practical? Maybe out in space where Freds HVAC might not be able to visit for like....forever to give 'er a shot of freon. You need an inverter/scroll fridge. Oops. I said "inverter" again.
I forgot about aircraft power adapters. That would solve the multi voltage route since you seem reluctant to even investigate one of the super cool inverters. UPS inverters are a different animal. Not designed one-iota for a pseudo off grid install like yours. Some wont even stop the incessant beeping when on battery.
I mean. How are ya' going to charge the towed vehicle storage battery? I'm thinking this guy is smart. Why not fabricate a tranny or differential yoke timing belt pulley and small alternator/generator. If its a RWD drive vehicle.

 

[Dave56]

The fridge in the van will be an actual 12V compressor. They have been around for a while and seem to be fairly reliable. I have a small Peltier cooler that I would take in the truck I'm transporting, so short duty and running off their truck.

I will have to look back into the Weingard in motion dish. My understanding was it was a true in motion dish, not an auto lock once set up. Will be interesting to see what I find.

 

[Dave56]

Copied from their web site:

Watch TV Anywhere - Watch LIVE programming while traveling down the road. Or record while on the go to watch later. The RoadTrip T4 in-motion satellite antenna delivers DISH, DIRECTV, and Bell TV programming.

 

[Cold Irons]

As someone who wrote weapon control software for Navy Destroyers for 30+ years, this should be pretty easy to do (much easier than a ship in the North Atlantic). If this in-motion sat antenna hardware & software is correctly designed, it should be able to track the satellites while a vehicle is in motion.

I'd think the only problem would be travelling in areas with lots of trees near the roads - probably not too much of a problem on interstates or out west, but would be on US highways with closer-in tree cover.

 

[Miner]

As someone who wrote weapon control software for Navy Destroyers for 30+ years, this should be pretty easy to do (much easier than a ship in the North Atlantic). If this in-motion sat antenna hardware & software is correctly designed, it should be able to track the satellites while a vehicle is in motion.

I'd think the only problem would be travelling in areas with lots of trees near the roads - probably not too much of a problem on interstates or out west, but would be on US highways with closer-in tree cover.

I had one that I picked up on cl for free. I never used it with my dish but I did test it. The biggest shortcoming and limitation was it stopped working with d* and then e* as they went to newer lnb technology and frequencies.

Ironically the system I had ran on 120. But it was designed for big (class A) motor homes.

 

[Dave56]

I would expect everything inside the Hopper 3 to run on +12 or +5... but it has to power the LNB. That is my only concern. I've played with a lot of different devices over the years, so coming up with a power supply for +12 and +5 doesn't phase me. But I am a put different boards together type, not make whole new boards from scratch type.

I would dearly love to get one and play with it, but I also don't want to spend several hundred dollars and wind up ruining it. Tried the few decent electronics shops in the area, and got pretty much the same answer. Dish keeps it all in house and doesn't give out schematics.

So far, I've not had any luck finding a defective one I could play with the power supply.

It still amazes me that Dish will promote a system for RV's that touts a +12 in motion antenna, but has a 110AC power supply.

 

[arlo]

Still on it? Well sit down because the whole 12 volt idea just hit the crapper.
Inverter time dude. Might as well face it. Dish Hopper receiver power supply rails right here.
I believe it' a vip 922 board.
Any black to either red wire: +12.22 VDC
Red to red: 0 VDC
Any black to yellow: +30.1 VDC
Yellow to either red: 0 VDC
No negative rails.
So. What's next on the agenda? I know what my path of progress would be.

 

[bookworm370]

You may be mistaking black as being ground. On a limited 4 pin plug, it's very possible that the actual ground is the frame itself. The lack of +5 in your readings might imply that the black might be the +5. Unless you can measure all of these leads in an installed and working receiver, you really can't be sure of any voltage readings. There is nothing that specifies that in a proprietary device that colors really mean anything. Is there any way you can make those readings with it being installed, even if the receiver itself is DOA? Measure from chassis frame to each of those wires.

 

[arlo]

You may be mistaking black as being ground. On a limited 4 pin plug, it's very possible that the actual ground is the frame itself. The lack of +5 in your readings might imply that the black might be the +5. Unless you can measure all of these leads in an installed and working receiver, you really can't be sure of any voltage readings. There is nothing that specifies that in a proprietary device that colors really mean anything. Is there any way you can make those readings with it being installed, even if the receiver itself is DOA? Measure from chassis frame to each of those wires.

All and any +/- 5 would be handled on the receiver board. I stated what was available at the switch mode power supply connector feeding the receiver. All 'frame' (ps pc board) screw terminals are tied to mains neutral. All receiver board screw terminals are isolated except one isolated with a MOV to frame ground. That being to sink spikes on the phone port. The RJ11.
The receiver is a working receiver by the way.
The supply has your classic tl431. It has your classic multi tap transformer. The ever classic high current precision rectifier. With a voltage divider current reference to tell the PWM how hard to drive the oscillator.
I mean. You're free to hit craigslist and find your own receiver. Or grab a new one and slice Mr. Hologram in half and try to convince dn "but it never even turned on out of the box when i plugged it in".
Besides the pipe dream of watching or recording uninterrupted satellite tv blazing down I-10 at 90mph from a bouncy-bounce camper. An octopus of wires coming out of your receiver to a stack of pcbway voltage massagers and manipulators. I can do it, you can do it, we can do it. In that good old rig-riggedy way. Because dammit....we're men! We got the books. No matter how wormy they may be! <snick>.
Get an inverter for chrissakes. Spin the capn's chair around. Prop your feet up on the Yeti. Spin one up, if that's what you enjoy with your.....120VAC nuked Jiffy Pop and compressor-driven fridge cooled beer. And watch a movie. From a high efficiency, true sine wave, inverted power source. The rest is up to you.
Kirk, out.

 

[Dave56]

Sad to say, the 30V doesn't surprise me. Many of te LNB's require some hefty voltage. Well, it was at least worth asking and getting a no, vs trying it on a good unit and frying a few hundred dollars worth of equipment.