Question about HD or HD lite on Dish

[whatchel1]

Digicipher 2

I don't know what you are comparing SC to on C Band, but considering some of the bitrates I see coming off SC - you've fallen for something hook, line and sinker. D* overall has better bitrates than SC - not to mention there very old Motorola Encoders.

Star Choice and 4dtv use Digicipher 2 encoder/decoders. PBS is moving away from this standard. It's gone to DVB MPEG 2 for their HD feed. HD NET and National Geographic are also using the DVB MPEG 2 as well. The Digicipher 2 will be around for a while longer because of so many companies are using it. But it is a standard that has had it's day and will be phased out over time. One of the 2 Showtime HD feeds dropped it a while back and replaced it w/ the Power Vue HD. TNT and Braves HD have gone Power Vu HD. These seem to be the up and coming standards on the BUD side of satellite.

 

[Sarang]

I say get rid of most of them international channels on E* and open up more space for true HD. No offense to the international subscribers. Hell before you know it, it will take a dish with about 9 lnb's just to get all the channels you want...and it will still look horrible.

Ok, I'm done.

You're joking about getting rid of the International channels right? VERY soon down the line Dish and DirecTV's profit margin will be severly threatened by FioS, Project Lightspeed and ALL the terresterial channel services gone Fiber. In fact even to the end of International channels their market there will soon be threatened by the IPTV STB services like XTV/ITVN unless Dish and DirecTV make them exclusive. This being said D* owns the rights to some so that won't be a problem but E* might want to buy some in the near future.
Btw to all the people wanting A La Carte you'll soon have close to that, think the packaging on Canadian Satellite Services, when ITVN and the other IPTV STB's become the Vonage of extra channel tv and it WILL happen, trust me. Bye bye forced ESPN carriage for most providers.
Now as to the HD-Lite issue I'm with Tom here. I was actually impressed by "Harry Potter and the Goblet Of Fire" though I couldn't understand why, when HBO debuted it, they didn't note it was in HD when they presented it. To be honest I think most HBO-HD product looks like crap, including their shows and frankly most of Showtime's original product hasn't impressed me either though I do appreciate them seeming to air all their HD channel product in OTA and a lot of their new stuff in that as well on their SD version. Maybe I have this problem because I watch Showtime HD on 110 since I have no chance of getting 148.
So to all the people talking about Tom being nuts, I guess I am as well. Of course I also have seen programming on PBS and CBS OTA that looks great so I have a standard I measure it by. About the ONLY good channel I've really seen on Dish for HD is HDMovies and I have the 7 HD channel pack. To be fair some of the previews for HD-Net's original programming look good though.
Oh btw in further statement to people NOT noticing picture issues I think the complaints will come streaming in when more people see the pictures on HD-DVD's and Blu-Ray discs. Also this issue will become readily apparent to the people who end up owning SED's and watching ANY slightly subpar HD program, broadcast or whatever.
The solution to really deal with all the PQ complaints is to take all the HD programming, with it's full bitrate as being transmitted and compress it as much as possible without sacrificing PQ. Whichever MPEG4 codec is most feasible even. Btw is Dish using the VC-1 codec for compression and if not, why so? Does it just work better off a static stream like a disc?
P.S. What few stuff I've seen on FOX HD OTA looks like crap. I REALLY hope it's the transmission and not the equipment they're filming the shows on.

 

[RockinRight]

That's an interesting theory, Sarang.

Perhaps when HD-DVD and BluRay reach higher market penetration levels, people will start noticing how crappy the D* and E* HD channels are, forcing them to actually do something about it.

 

[richiephx]

I have been vocal about the quality of hd channels on E* but, and I find this difficult to say but, today, I noticed the picture quality on StarzHD looked better....there was less macro-blocking during motion scenes in Chronicles of Narnia than what I have seen in the past. Picture quality appeared better for some reason. Also, I find the HD quality on the Showtime series, Dexter, is excellent. Maybe E* is making some positive changes?

 

[Tom Bombadil]

That's an interesting theory, Sarang.

Perhaps when HD-DVD and BluRay reach higher market penetration levels, people will start noticing how crappy the D* and E* HD channels are, forcing them to actually do something about it.

I said exactly the same thing about SD and DVDs about 6 to 7 years ago, when E* started lowering SD quality. E*'s SD quality was very good back in '97-'98.

But after DVDs became more popular, E* continued to lower SD PQ.

In this case, I think the same will happen. Because many, many people who buy HDTVs will be very happy with the quality of 1280x1080i. In fact, many already are. And the people who come on board for HDTV in the future, will be those who wanted to pay less for it and weren't prompted to jump early for higher quality.

Perhaps at some point in the future, when HD DVDs are very cheap and plentiful, and MPEG4 or whatever is used then, is much more effective at compressing HD so that it is cheap to transmit higher quality HD, then we'll see good HD PQ. But I don't think this is going to happen in the next 3-4 years.

The only way for HD PQ to improve is for the general public to demand it, and demand it to the point of switching their providers to get it. I don't see this happening. I don't even see this happening here on SatGuys, where a lot of people seem to like their DishHD. And this is a place where you would expect a lot more demand for quality.

There's a chance that if FIOS service becomes more widely available *AND* it provides higher quality HD *AND* people switch to it *AND* surveys indicate that a major reason why they switched to it was higher quality HD, then E* and D* might improve quality to compete. But don't hold your breath.

As D* is going to start competing in the HD channel race next year, I think you will see a lot of pressure on E* to continue to had more HD channels. They aren't going to add more channels and increase the bandwidth allocations to all HD channels.

So the only hope is some kind of significant improvement in MPEG4 encoding. And improvements are happening on that front.

I commented earlier that DishHD PQ is lower now than 6 months ago, and was lower then than the 6 months before it. Odds are that it will be lower still in another 6 months.

 

[RockinRight]

Does the 1280i/1080 actually make the picture closer to 4:3 than 16:9?

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Star Choice and 4dtv use Digicipher 2 encoder/decoders. PBS is moving away from this standard. It's gone to DVB MPEG 2 for their HD feed. HD NET and National Geographic are also using the DVB MPEG 2 as well. The Digicipher 2 will be around for a while longer because of so many companies are using it. But it is a standard that has had it's day and will be phased out over time. One of the 2 Showtime HD feeds dropped it a while back and replaced it w/ the Power Vue HD. TNT and Braves HD have gone Power Vu HD. These seem to be the up and coming standards on the BUD side of satellite.

First, do not confuse the encryption methods with the mpeg encoders. 2 different things.

PBS HD has never been digicipher 2.

Showtime HD East uses Motorola MegaPipe, not SA PowerVU, which is still Digicipher and is using it in a stat-mux configuration which is why the bitrates are higher than Showtime West and why the rates vary from showing to showing.

Showtime HD West uses the older Digicipher system with a set bitrate and is unable to borrow bandwidth from other feeds on the same transponder.

HDNET is using Wegner.

 

[gary s]

I have a 32" sony bravia hdtv hooked up to a 622 with HD coming from the 129 sat on a dish just for it. I watch it at about a distance of 8'.

I think probably some of the best and most vibrant hd pictures I have seen come on Wheel of Fortune on the Los Angeles hd feed of KABC on channel 6306. I don't know what the bitrate or anything of it is but the picture looks great.

I have the 622 tv type set up on 720p.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Now as to the HD-Lite issue I'm with Tom here. I was actually impressed by "Harry Potter and the Goblet Of Fire" though I couldn't understand why, when HBO debuted it, they didn't note it was in HD when they presented it. To be honest I think most HBO-HD product looks like crap, including their shows and frankly most of Showtime's original product hasn't impressed me either though I do appreciate them seeming to air all their HD channel product in OTA and a lot of their new stuff in that as well on their SD version. Maybe I have this problem because I watch Showtime HD on 110 since I have no chance of getting 148.
So to all the people talking about Tom being nuts, I guess I am as well. Of course I also have seen programming on PBS and CBS OTA that looks great so I have a standard I measure it by. About the ONLY good channel I've really seen on Dish for HD is HDMovies and I have the 7 HD channel pack. To be fair some of the previews for HD-Net's original programming look good though.

Interesting, as everyone else thing Harry Potter looked HORRIBLE - just as the people complained about the DVD.

In fact, its one of their worst looking titles this month.

On the other hand, Showtime now has better bitrates (when telecine is factored in) then HDNET's HDLITE on E*.

So I guess you are on some parallel planet.

 

[Julien]

Does the 1280i/1080 actually make the picture closer to 4:3 than 16:9?

No because it uses non round (elliptical) pixels. Then the receiver upscales to 1920.

Many plasmas use this "trick" by downscaling to claim 1080 when the display panel can be as low as 1080x1080.

 

[RockinRight]

No because it uses non round (elliptical) pixels. Then the receiver upscales to 1920.

Many plasmas use this "trick" by downscaling to claim 1080 when the display panel can be as low as 1080x1080.

Sounds like they're doing the same thing with their quality that GM, Ford, and Chrysler did in the 70s/80s...take a good technology and cheapen it up making it crap in the process.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

While I routinely see 100 to 200, and sometimes more like 400-500, compression artifacts during a 2 hour movie, I did not spot a single one during last week's Harry Potter movie on HBO. Not even in dark scenes during camera pans. No macro-blocking, no contouring, no motion blurring. This is extremely rare on DishHD.

Well, I did see a little mosquito noise in some dark scenes. It was slight and may have been in the transfer. Whenever this is the biggest problem on an E* HD program, I thank my lucky stars.

Couldn't guarantee this would still be true on this week's showing. I have seen significant PQ differences between airings of the same programs on the same channels.

Thus my comments had to do with there being no noticable PQ degradations stemming from something E* was doing to the picture. The image quality of the movie itself was okay. Even on the big screen it wasn't great.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

While I routinely see 100 to 200, and sometimes more like 400-500, compression artifacts during a 2 hour movie, I did not spot a single one during last week's Harry Potter movie on HBO. Not even in dark scenes during camera pans. No macro-blocking, no contouring, no motion blurring. This is extremely rare on DishHD.

Well, I did see a little mosquito noise in some dark scenes. It was slight and may have been in the transfer. Whenever this is the biggest problem on an E* HD program, I thank my lucky stars.

Couldn't guarantee this would still be true on this week's showing. I have seen significant PQ differences between airings of the same programs on the same channels.

Thus my comments had to do with there being no noticable PQ degradations stemming from something E* was doing to the picture. The image quality of the movie itself was okay. Even on the big screen it wasn't great.

Think about what you are saying.

As you note the original PQ isn't great - there isn't as much macroblocking/compression artifcats.

Less detail on a worse original doesn't require the bandwidth for the detail and thus less macroblocking.

Its no different than showing a transfer 2.35:1 OAR and requiring far less bandwidth as the black bars take literally no bandwidth.