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And that is the ONLY legitimate arguement against the Toshibas outputting 1080i60 but I just cant see the judder. I have the PS3 and the HD-A1 and the end result is identical IMO. And you know what? In all of the BluDuds arguements here I have not seen them use the ONLY legitimate arguement i.e "judder". But rest assured once they understand what it is they will jump ALL over that whether they can really see it or not.
I'm with you on that one - I can't see it either. And, like I said before, I don't have a movie I can use for a straight comparison between the two, but I can't see a difference in PQ between my A2 and my PS3, either.
I agree when you're talking about TV broadcasts - I can't tell a difference. But are you guys saying you don't think 1080p is any better for BD/HD-DVD/PS3/360?
I'm not sure how that can be the case, but maybe I'm missing something. It's 360 more lines of resolution, right? And still progressive? How can that not make a difference?
My understanding (which I'm sure is wrong) is that a 720p native has to downconvert a 1080 signal to 420 then upconvert to 720. If that is the case then I would say that it would make a difference.
If you don't have a dedicated home theatre room and are watching a 50" screen from 10' away (what sounds very reasonable, IMHO),
your eyes won't be able to resolve more than 720 lines (and that is with 20/20 vision)...
http://www.satelliteguys.us/974649-post12.html
Diogen.
(sound of a couch being moved closer to the TV)
The only thing this forum is good for anymore is to remind me that specs and what other people think don't matter. All that matters is what looks/sounds/feels good to me...
That is something that no TV manufacturer will ever tell you...
Since most 720 TVs won't handle 1080p input (only 1080i), in most cases they will just "bob" it:
-convert each 1920x1080 interlaced field into a 1920x540 frame
-stretch it back to 1920x1080 progressive frame (effectively line doubling).
-scale it to 1280x720
And this was exactly what Ben Waggoner said over a year ago(sound of a couch being moved closer to the TV)
AVS Forum Archive 2 - HiDef DVD News V - A Last Hope ??
Diogen.
That is something that no TV manufacturer will ever tell you...
Since most 720 TVs won't handle 1080p input (only 1080i), in most cases they will just "bob" it:
-convert each 1920x1080 interlaced field into a 1920x540 frame
-stretch it back to 1920x1080 progressive frame (effectively line doubling).
-scale it to 1280x720
And this was exactly what Ben Waggoner said over a year ago
AVS Forum Archive 2 - HiDef DVD News V - A Last Hope ??
Diogen.
How can you take away half of each frame (540 fields) and which one do you omit and how do you reassemble your image to resemble anything beyond Picasso reality?
After scaling to 1280x720 what do you do with the other million pixels?A 1920x1080 interlaced field has only 540 lines of information, i.e it is a 1920x540 progressive frame ("squished").
Deinterlacing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After you scale it - take the original square of 9 pixels (3x3) and convert it to 4 (2x2) - there are no pixels left.
Diogen.
Interlaing involves odd and even lines of information (60 fields). It is a mistake to think that 1080i only containes 540 lines of information. IT containes 60 fields per second comprising of one half (odds and even lines) of each frame. Let's try some simple math. Divide 1080X2. Divide 60X2. Divide 16X9. Divide 1920X1080. Divide 1280X720.
Fixed pixel displays are normally scaled to make use of all the pixels. On a 1920X1080 display proper scaling from 1280x720 or 854x480 still is to the original 2 million pixels. a 4x3 image which is 340k is scaled to about 1440x1080. I suggest that a good 1080 display will show the greatest difference with other displays in the displaying of SD digital images.
You are correct under two conditions:
-the source material is 24fps
-the TV can do proper IVTC
As was pointed out many times, not all TVs do IVTC right.
And if a particular TV doesn't do it right, it just "bob"'s it (as described in the Wiki link).
Unless you use high quality deinterlacers, the same happens to 1080/60i video footage,
where the interlaced fields are not from the same frame but 1/60th of a second apart (e.g. sports in HD on satellite), introducing combing.
I was talking about scaling a HD/BD stream on a 720p set.
Diogen.
EDIT:
If your player is a good upconverting player (as most of the HD/BD players are) or you use an HTPC (with ffdshow and Lancos Resize).
The picture from a non-upconverting DVD player on a hidef TV set will be worse than on a SD TV set.
Last edited:
Let's try explaining TV interlacing in a little different way. You have a 10 step ladder to paint. All of the odd number rungs (1,3,5,7,9) are painted white in thirty minutes. All of the even number rungs (2,4,6,8,10) are painted black in thirty minutes. When you are done, do you have 5 steps painted white, 5 steps painted black, or a ladder comprised of 10 steps painted black and white? You have all of this things or a complete ladder.
I don't know how else to explain it: this is the case only when the interlaced fields are from the same frame/moment of time.
Here is what it looks like when they are not (the first 4 pictures)
What is deinterlacing? The best method to deinterlace movies
Diogen.
Here is what it looks like when they are not (the first 4 pictures)
What is deinterlacing? The best method to deinterlace movies
Diogen.
From you example (from England here it would be 60 instead of 50):
"Your digital camcorder does the following:
Records 50 pictures per second, intermixing every 2 consecutive pictures (with half the height) into 1 frame.
In fact, you don't call them pictures, but fields. So 2 fields are mixed into 1 frame. This mixing is called interlacing."
"Your digital camcorder does the following:
Records 50 pictures per second, intermixing every 2 consecutive pictures (with half the height) into 1 frame.
In fact, you don't call them pictures, but fields. So 2 fields are mixed into 1 frame. This mixing is called interlacing."
Wow, are you really this thick? Diogen's done a great job trying to explain this to you and you still refuse to see what is happening.
Lets say this (with an naturally interlaced image like TV or 1080i TV)..
At time 0.0 sec (when the first picture is taken), the odd lines on an interlace field will contain all the horizontal pixels of information.
At time 0.167sec (when the second picture is taken), the even lines on an interlace field will contain all the horizontal pixels of information.
What happens to the opposite lines in those images will depend on the type of TV. It will either display it as straight interlaced where only the odd, then even lines will be lit up, or the TV may try to take the image and produce a progressive image to lit up both the odd and even lines.
For example, lets go back to your ladder example. You paint all the odd rungs first. Take a picture of of it. Now move the ladder to a new location and paint all the even rungs. Take a picture of it. Take the two pictures and define evenly spaced horizontal lines across both pictures. Cut out the odd ones from the first picture and the even ones from the second picture. Yes you will have a ladder but with some odd things. ..
1) The even rungs will be painted black along even lines, but its old color on odd lines
2) The background on the odd image will be different from the even image because of the location (simulated time shift) change.
3) Other issues may crop up because the camera may not be in the exact position with respect to the ladder in each picture.
Lets say this (with an naturally interlaced image like TV or 1080i TV)..
At time 0.0 sec (when the first picture is taken), the odd lines on an interlace field will contain all the horizontal pixels of information.
At time 0.167sec (when the second picture is taken), the even lines on an interlace field will contain all the horizontal pixels of information.
What happens to the opposite lines in those images will depend on the type of TV. It will either display it as straight interlaced where only the odd, then even lines will be lit up, or the TV may try to take the image and produce a progressive image to lit up both the odd and even lines.
For example, lets go back to your ladder example. You paint all the odd rungs first. Take a picture of of it. Now move the ladder to a new location and paint all the even rungs. Take a picture of it. Take the two pictures and define evenly spaced horizontal lines across both pictures. Cut out the odd ones from the first picture and the even ones from the second picture. Yes you will have a ladder but with some odd things. ..
1) The even rungs will be painted black along even lines, but its old color on odd lines
2) The background on the odd image will be different from the even image because of the location (simulated time shift) change.
3) Other issues may crop up because the camera may not be in the exact position with respect to the ladder in each picture.
Correct. If we do not reassemble the ladder we do not have a picture. Each field (60 times a second) contains all of the horizontal information, but only 1/2 of the vertical information. BY assembling the two fields we come to one Frame of a picture. It is not 540 lines, but 1080 lines comprised of 2 sets of 540 lines containing all the horizontal picture but half of the vertical information. IT t is not the same information twice but the making of a complete picture.
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