The HD-lite war is over

Tom Bombadil

Supporting Founder
Original poster
Supporting Founder
May 5, 2005
3,601
1
Chicago-Milwaukee Region
In my opinion the recent events of channels like HDNET and HDNMV being down-rezzed, along with the obvious bit-starving on many channels, is confirmation that the best days of HD picture quality from E* are now behind us.

A year ago the PQ was quite good. We had several full 1920x1080i and 1280x720p channels that were getting good bit rates. This list even included 4 VOOM channels - I remember watching some great shows on VOOM EQUATOR last summer.

The overall PQ now is decidedly lower. Only a few good channels remain. None of the channels added since last summer have good PQ.

(As far as this message goes, I'm going to use the term HD-lite to include BOTH down-rezzing and bit-starving.)

At first when some of the VOOM channels were changed to HD-lite, it felt temporary. And I had hope that a groundswell of complaints could influence E* from heading down this path - although I wrote multiple times here that I strongly suspected it would not deter them.

Well, it certainly hasn't detered them.

It appears quite clear to me that HD-lite is the new official E* standard for HD.

And any true/high quality HD that we enjoy from this time out is to be relished, for the days are likely numbered for this level of quality from any channel.

I expect E* to continue to optimize their encoders and compression algorithms. They do try to get as good a quality as they can out of the insufficient bandwidth that they allocate to channels. Over the past 3 years the PQ on the SD channels has improved. Over the past 6 months the PQ on the VOOM channels has improved.

I guess it is possible that if E* could come up with some super efficient MPEG4 encoding that higher quality HD could return ... but my money would then be on them squeezing yet another HD channel on each transponder.

It is unfortunate timing that the better quality HD is disappearing right as higher quality HDTV sets are becoming more affordable. In a couple of years true 1080p sets are going to be much more popular, but all we will have from E* and D* will be HD-lite.

So I'm ready to accept the obvious ... E* HD will all be HD-lite. It took me long enough to swallow this, and I certainly don't like it. I would bolt E* in a second if I had a true HD alternative, but I don't have one. So I will watch my watered-down HD-lite and I will grimmace and moan and curse from time to time, but it is time for me to accept it.
 
I am wondering what was the original impetus that gave rise to higher definition TV's & programming in the first place. If those same forces are at play, would not competitive pressures force the quality to the level that the market (guys like me) will pay for? When we all get used to having significantly better definition DVD discs and players, the broadcasters will be pushed to provide equivalent quality (at least it seems to me).
 
IMO, HD-lite will die out as soon as HD DVD (or blu-ray) becomes common. When folks will have the ability to order unlimited high def DVD's from NETFLIX for 9.99 a month the HD-lite era will be gone.
 
Petrovich said:
IMO, HD-lite will die out as soon as HD DVD (or blu-ray) becomes common. When folks will have the ability to order unlimited high def DVD's from NETFLIX for 9.99 a month the HD-lite era will be gone.

Wrong. It's all the more reason for them to deliver HD-lite. Why broadcast full bandwidth HD for free when you have an HD-DVD box set to sell?
 
Petrovich,

I said exactly the same thing about SD and DVDs. "When people see what DVDs look like, E* will never get away with dishing out mediocre SD channels."

Ha! I was wrong. Joe and Jane Q. Public will accept a lot of mediocrity.

HD-lite is so far above the SD-lite standard that Joe and Jane will not only accept it, but they will embrace and brag about how good it looks. And most of them will simply not notice the degradation, even though it is there on every HD set and pretty easy to see on anything 40" & over.
 
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We can only speculate now as we don't have true competition yet. In the end people will pay for what they like to watch. There are way too few customers now that even know what HD is. As more and more customers will have ways to compare what they've got on their $$$ TV's to true HD, crappy HD-lite will be dying away.
 
Tom Bombadil said:
Ha! I was wrong. Joe and Jane Q. Public will accept a lot of mediocrity.

Amen to that. J&JQP have almost always done that. (the following is IMHO) Beta had a better picture than VHS but VHS won, SVHS was better than VHS but never took over the market, audio CD's (especially early on) sounded horrible but beat out albums because of convenience and eventually cost, SACD and DVDA both are far better than CD's audio wise but won't replace CD's, MP3 has downrezzed full bandwidth CD's and degraded the audio but the public loves them (again, convenience over quality).... only acceptance of the DVD itself bucked the trend, seems logical to me that HD-Lite is here to stay!! Of couse all you need to tell J&JQP is that what they are getting is 'all digital' and they jump for joy, as if somehow 'all digital' means high quality. As long as bandwidth is tight, we'll have to live with HD-Lite!!
 
Amen.

Two add-on comments.

1) DVDs are sort of an exception. Yes, they can be quite good. But the public accepts almost any quality on a DVD. Many are overly compressed and there is very little backlash about it.

2) I think bandwidth will be tight for a long time. Neither D* or E* are going to put up a lot of satellites in order to increase HD quality. If they happen to have extra transponders due to new birds, they will add more local HD channels and eat them up.
 
To make matters worse Customer Service will not even admit there are any issues. I wrote a letter through the website and the response I got about the pixelating and blurry picture was because I didn't have my TV set correctly. According to DISH I need to set my TV to 720P for Sports and 1080i for all other programs and it will resolve my issue. I wrote back stating that was not an acceptable answer and I am still waiting for answer.

Tom Bombadil said:
In my opinion the recent events of channels like HDNET and HDNMV being down-rezzed, along with the obvious bit-starving on many channels, is confirmation that the best days of HD picture quality from E* are now behind us.

A year ago the PQ was quite good. We had several full 1920x1080i and 1280x720p channels that were getting good bit rates. This list even included 4 VOOM channels - I remember watching some great shows on VOOM EQUATOR last summer.

The overall PQ now is decidedly lower. Only a few good channels remain. None of the channels added since last summer have good PQ.

(As far as this message goes, I'm going to use the term HD-lite to include BOTH down-rezzing and bit-starving.)

At first when some of the VOOM channels were changed to HD-lite, it felt temporary. And I had hope that a groundswell of complaints could influence E* from heading down this path - although I wrote multiple times here that I strongly suspected it would not deter them.

Well, it certainly hasn't detered them.

It appears quite clear to me that HD-lite is the new official E* standard for HD.

And any true/high quality HD that we enjoy from this time out is to be relished, for the days are likely numbered for this level of quality from any channel.

I expect E* to continue to optimize their encoders and compression algorithms. They do try to get as good a quality as they can out of the insufficient bandwidth that they allocate to channels. Over the past 3 years the PQ on the SD channels has improved. Over the past 6 months the PQ on the VOOM channels has improved.

I guess it is possible that if E* could come up with some super efficient MPEG4 encoding that higher quality HD could return ... but my money would then be on them squeezing yet another HD channel on each transponder.

It is unfortunate timing that the better quality HD is disappearing right as higher quality HDTV sets are becoming more affordable. In a couple of years true 1080p sets are going to be much more popular, but all we will have from E* and D* will be HD-lite.

So I'm ready to accept the obvious ... E* HD will all be HD-lite. It took me long enough to swallow this, and I certainly don't like it. I would bolt E* in a second if I had a true HD alternative, but I don't have one. So I will watch my watered-down HD-lite and I will grimmace and moan and curse from time to time, but it is time for me to accept it.
 
What about HD programming on C-band? I have a 4dtv receiver and a 10' dish still connected but I don't subscribe to any programming. Is the quality of the limited HD programming on C-band better than DBS?
 
damn, voom was ahead of its time. i only had it for about 6 months, but it was great!! MAYBE, some other rich guy will take a chance on REAL hd. heck, if bandwith is a problem, cut out 1/2 the channels they offer on sd! i have, like alot of you over 100 channels ( charter, st louis) and 90% i never watch! alacrat!!! everyone wish for me to win a BIG lottery, i will start one up!
 
What a world do we live in when Verizon provides the best HD PQ outside of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Saying that I can't wait for FIOS.
 
dantheman77 said:
damn, voom was ahead of its time. i only had it for about 6 months, but it was great!! MAYBE, some other rich guy will take a chance on REAL hd. heck, if bandwith is a problem, cut out 1/2 the channels they offer on sd! i have, like alot of you over 100 channels ( charter, st louis) and 90% i never watch! alacrat!!! everyone wish for me to win a BIG lottery, i will start one up!
That rich guy ??? Maybe we can talk with Mr. Mark Cuban and see if he's interested in helping out the rest of us with TRUE HD...
Someone has to mandate that the provider delivers the signal at the high quality that it is sent to them in, somehow....
You cannot cut out 1/2 the channels as you would like, because, we are in a huge minority as far as having HD.
I would guess that maybe 5 % of D* and DISH subs are HD subs, so 95 % are still comfortable with the SD channels being brought to them (posibbly 10%).
Ala carte was mentioned a few years back, but I doubt the providers ever seriously considered it. The other trouble with that would be that ala carte channels would cost more per channel and eventually come to about what your paying now. IMO.

I use to order ala carte and liked it very well with my old C - Band, but I think packaging gives the best overall value, the provider can bundle a few channels you don't want, provided you get enough channels you do want.

Jimbo
 
dantheman77 said:
damn, voom was ahead of its time. i only had it for about 6 months, but it was great!! MAYBE, some other rich guy will take a chance on REAL hd. heck, if bandwith is a problem, cut out 1/2 the channels they offer on sd! i have, like alot of you over 100 channels ( charter, st louis) and 90% i never watch! alacrat!!! everyone wish for me to win a BIG lottery, i will start one up!

Voom was HD-Lite too :eek: (1440 x 1080)
 
I think you guys are dreaming if you think someone like Cuban is going to start up a system like Voom. He's even publicly stated here on these very forums that he sees no problem with HDLite.

My only hope at this point in time is that NFL HD goes away soon, and Dish has someone high enough up the ladder that peeks there head out into the daylight and sees all the upset subs' comments, and restores the HDnet's to their former self.

I do think that we will see much more improved MPEG4 encoders, because this is really new territory here for real time MPEG4 encoding for broadcasting, but my fear is that instead of increasing the resolution/bitrates to HD quality, they will take the savings and cram more HD Lite channels in. :(
 

Whatever happened to the 611 single-tuner dvr?

Did I get this setup right?

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