What is true HD and is E* and D* Cheating?

[JoeSp]

I have been reading about down resolution of HD by both Sat providers and I have done a little research. Here are the results.

The FCC has two HD formats. One is 1280x720p and the other is 1920x1080i. They consider that both are True HD formats.

The HDTV manufacturers have used the following resolutions to produce HDTVs.

1280x720p, 1280x1280i, 1366x768p, 1200x1080i, 1440x1080i , 1600x1080i, 1920x1080i and the new and improved 1920x1080p.

The last the 1920x1080p is very interesting, less than half of all HDTVs claiming this actually have a 1920x1080p input! No set manufactured before the summer of 2005 has a 1920x1080p input because there were no sources doing that output.

Now after reading this both E* and D* are meeting the lower form of HD from the FCC by broadcasting 1280x1080i. While this is not the highest form of HD nor is it the lowest alowed by the FCC. If you are viewing anything but 2006 model LCD or DLP or any RPTV under 60" then they are meeting the highest resolution your set can produce. Let the naysayers begin!!

 

[sampatterson]

I know I keep harping on about this in several threads, but what they talk about is an "output format" and max resolution. For example, you can say you are "HDTV" if you take a 640x480 program source and output the 640x480 signal at 1080i. Yes, you may or may not be "uprezzing" the signal but it doesn't add any additional definition to the picture. If a box outputs 1080i or 720p, no matter what the picture's input source resolution is or looks like, it can be called HD. That is what we are running into with the so-called HD Lite. It is TRUE HD because the E* 6000, 942, 921, 8xx, etc are all outputting the signal at 1920x1080i or 720p and it doesn't matter legally what the input source is from.

 

[BrettTRay]

most tv's are either 1920x1080i or 1280x720p. There are new tv's that Upconvert to 1920x1080p but there isn't anybody doing that resolution though. Voom is now doing 1280x1080i witch is alot lower of a resolution than my tv's resolution (1920x1080i), so no they are not producing the best picture that "most" tv's can produce.

 

[SimpleSimon]

1280x1080i. While this is not the highest form of HD nor is it the lowest alowed by the FCC.

Actually, it IS the lowest form.

720p is the same number of scan lines as a (hypothetical) 1440i.

Conversely, 1080i would be 540p.

 

[Sean Mota]

Would you buy a BMW knowing that the engine inside the car is of a Ford? The BMW with the Ford engine may look the same as the True BMW and may feel the same but, in reality, it is not the same.

 

[rdinkel]

I have been reading about down resolution of HD by both Sat providers and I have done a little research. Here are the results.
The FCC has two HD formats. One is 1280x720p and the other is 1920x1080i. They consider that both are True HD formats.
The HDTV manufacturers have used the following resolutions to produce HDTVs.
1280x720p, 1280x1280i, 1366x768p, 1200x1080i, 1440x1080i , 1600x1080i, 1920x1080i and the new and improved 1920x1080p.
The last the 1920x1080p is very interesting, less than half of all HDTVs claiming this actually have a 1920x1080p input! No set manufactured before the summer of 2005 has a 1920x1080p input because there were no sources doing that output.
Now after reading this both E* and D* are meeting the lower form of HD from the FCC by broadcasting 1280x1080i. While this is not the highest form of HD nor is it the lowest alowed by the FCC. If you are viewing anything but 2006 model LCD or DLP or any RPTV under 60" then they are meeting the highest resolution your set can produce. Let the naysayers begin!!

I beg to differ! My Loewe Aconda 38" CRT HDTV is fully capable of 1920 x 1080i and in fact it employes digital progressive scan such that the entire picture is processed and displayed on the CRT in one pass, 60 times per second--twice the speed of interlaced scanning.

 

[jergenf]

The last the 1920x1080p is very interesting, less than half of all HDTVs claiming this actually have a 1920x1080p input! No set manufactured before the summer of 2005 has a 1920x1080p input because there were no sources doing that output.

I believe all 1080p fixed pixel displays will upconvert 1080i to 1080p

Second I though all HD sets are capable of all 18 digital formats. Therfore 1080p would be 2 MegaPixels every 1/30th (or 1/24) of a sec while 1080i is 1 MegaPixel every 1/60th of a sec hense the same pixels over time (for 30 frame rate anyway). example 1920 x 540 x 60 = 1920 x 1080 x 30

#       Name    Format  Aspect  Resolution      Frames
Ratio   horz x vert     per/sec
=======================================================
1       SDTV    480i    4:3     640 x 480       30
2       SDTV    480i    4:3     704 x 480       30
3       SDTV    480i    16:9    704 x 480       30
4       EDTV    480p    4:3     640 x 480       24
5       EDTV    480p    4:3     640 x 480       30
6       EDTV    480p    4:3     640 x 480       60
7       EDTV    480p    4:3     704 x 480       24
8       EDTV    480p    4:3     704 x 480       30
9       EDTV    480p    4:3     704 x 480       60
10      EDTV    480p    16:9    704 x 480       24
11      EDTV    480p    16:9    704 x 480       30
12      EDTV    480p    16:9    704 x 480       60
13      HDTV    720p    16:9    1280 x 720      24
14      HDTV    720p    16:9    1280 x 720      30
15      HDTV    720p    16:9    1280 x 720      60
16      HDTV    1080i   16:9    1920 x 1080     30
17      HDTV    1080p   16:9    1920 x 1080     24
18      HDTV    1080p   16:9    1920 x 1080     30

Now after reading this both E* and D* are meeting the lower form of HD from the FCC by broadcasting 1280x1080i. While this is not the highest form of HD nor is it the lowest alowed by the FCC. If you are viewing anything but 2006 model LCD or DLP or any RPTV under 60" then they are meeting the highest resolution your set can produce. Let the naysayers begin!!

I think PBS also has a reduced HD. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think the process is to reduce the resolution of the raw image then upconvert to full 1080i and the result after mpeg2 compression would be less bandwidth size than if the original image was at the true 2 MegaPixels.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Actually there are a lot of HDTVs that have substandard HD resolution.

The vast majority of DLPs sold are 1280x720, with many of the new models using a 640x720 mirror chip and modulation to achieve 1280x720.

The 42" "HD" plasma sets have always been 1024x768.

Rear-projection CRT sets that have 7" CRTs have around 1200-1300 lines of resolution.

The vast majority of rear projection LCD sets (Sony, Panasonic, Hitachi, LG) are 1366x768 or 1280x720.

50" plasmas are 1366x768.

Only a very small percentage of HDTV sets sold to date are capable of full 1920x1080 resolution. I would guess this to be less than 5%.

Even the number that could fully display a 1440x1080 image is quite small.

Ironically, this number is now growing, at the time when the HD image is starting to be compressed.

So technically, if you had a perfect 1280x1080 picture, most people would not see a difference between it and a 1920x1080 picture on their existing HDTV sets.

In the future, there will be many sets capable of true 1920x1080. If you had such a set and say a blu-ray true 1920x1080 DVD, then you should be able to easily see a difference between it and a 1280x1080 source.

 

[Stargazer]

How about buying an 8 cylnder running on 6 or 7?

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I beg to differ! My Loewe Aconda 38" CRT HDTV is fully capable of 1920 x 1080i and in fact it employes digital progressive scan such that the entire picture is processed and displayed on the CRT in one pass, 60 times per second--twice the speed of interlaced scanning.

The Loewe Aconda 38" uses the same picture tube as the RCA F3810 set, although with much better electronics. That set had a dot pitch of 0.78mm. RCA stated that the theoretical maximum resolution that it could reproduce was 1280 lines, a number unachievable in real-life.

An indepth test of this set found that it had about 960 lines of resolution, which is quite good for a direct-view CRT. But it is well short of 1280, to say nothing about 1920.

http://www.avguide.com/newsletter/April_TPV/loewe_aconda_38.jsp

 

[jergenf]

I beg to differ! My Loewe Aconda 38" CRT HDTV is fully capable of 1920 x 1080i and in fact it employes digital progressive scan such that the entire picture is processed and displayed on the CRT in one pass, 60 times per second--twice the speed of interlaced scanning.

Actually that CRT would have a maximum theroretical horizontal resolution of 1078. Here how I determined it width = 840 mm / .78 dot pitch = 1078. Even though the beam traces out 1920 pixels per line the RGB mask isn't small enough to truly display each pixel.

Also even though it does progressive it still limited to interlace for 1080i. It also upconverts 720p to 1080i. It of course does 480p in full progressive. It can also does 960i using a digital line doubler (this means 480i will have twice the vertical lines making it as good as 480p).

 

[jergenf]

.
In the future, there will be many sets capable of true 1920x1080. If you had such a set and say a blu-ray true 1920x1080 DVD, then you should be able to easily see a difference between it and a 1280x1080 source.

I think in a few years (perhaps 2009) 1080p displays will be the norm. BenQ has 1080p at 37 inch LCD, Sharp and LG have 1080p LCD's in 45-46 inch size. Someone invented a 80 inch plasma that does full 1080p and also there are DLP chips now capable of that.

As you said, there are very few right now but as prices drop and new 1080p displays appear manufacturers will all join the bandwagon.

I even believe their looking at quad HD 3840 x 2160 for front projection in the foreseeable future.

 

[T2k]

The last the 1920x1080p is very interesting, less than half of all HDTVs claiming this actually have a 1920x1080p input! No set manufactured before the summer of 2005 has a 1920x1080p input because there were no sources doing that output.

This part is completely bogus.

1. You're confused - they don't have any per resolution input, they can accept certain range of resolutions and display another range.

2. There are numerous 1080p sets out there, all are shipping. Sharp, JVC, Samsung, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Sony 1080p HDTVs are all available but you can save money by ordering from cheaper mfrs like Westinghouse, Sceptre etc too.

3. There are 1080p-capable DVD/HD players too: Denon, Marantz, Classe or the inexpensive NeoNeo.

4. *ANY* HTPC can output 1080p resolution.

5. You can already *BUY* 1080p-formatted movies, even online if you want.

Conclusion: 1080p has arrived and already took over the throne of 'highest available resolution'.

PS: I personally decided my next HDTV purchase will be 1080p-capable unit (I already have 1080p-capable LCD displays, even CRT but they aren't dedicated TVs - my current HDTV is 720p native which I consider superior to 1080i at any day, BTW.)

 

[T2k]

Actually that CRT would have a maximum theroretical horizontal resolution of 1078. Here how I determined it width = 840 mm / .78 dot pitch = 1078. Even though the beam traces out 1920 pixels per line the RGB mask isn't small enough to truly display each pixel.
Also even though it does progressive it still limited to interlace for 1080i. It also upconverts 720p to 1080i. It of course does 480p in full progressive. It can also does 960i using a digital line doubler (this means 480i will have twice the vertical lines making it as good as 480p).

OT
I am in the process of selling my HP A7217A 24" CRT - that's capable for 23xx by 18xx , progressive of course... my heart is bleeding but it's waaay too big...

 

[T2k]

I believe all 1080p fixed pixel displays will upconvert 1080i to 1080p
Second I though all HD sets are capable of all 18 digital formats. Therfore 1080p would be 2 MegaPixels every 1/30th (or 1/24) of a sec while 1080i is 1 MegaPixel every 1/60th of a sec hense the same pixels over time (for 30 frame rate anyway). example 1920 x 540 x 60 = 1920 x 1080 x 30

#       Name    Format  Aspect  Resolution      Frames
Ratio   horz x vert     per/sec
=======================================================
1       SDTV    480i    4:3     640 x 480       30
2       SDTV    480i    4:3     704 x 480       30
3       SDTV    480i    16:9    704 x 480       30
4       EDTV    480p    4:3     640 x 480       24
5       EDTV    480p    4:3     640 x 480       30
6       EDTV    480p    4:3     640 x 480       60
7       EDTV    480p    4:3     704 x 480       24
8       EDTV    480p    4:3     704 x 480       30
9       EDTV    480p    4:3     704 x 480       60
10      EDTV    480p    16:9    704 x 480       24
11      EDTV    480p    16:9    704 x 480       30
12      EDTV    480p    16:9    704 x 480       60
13      HDTV    720p    16:9    1280 x 720      24
14      HDTV    720p    16:9    1280 x 720      30
15      HDTV    720p    16:9    1280 x 720      60
16      HDTV    1080i   16:9    1920 x 1080     30
17      HDTV    1080p   16:9    1920 x 1080     24
18      HDTV    1080p   16:9    1920 x 1080     30

I think PBS also has a reduced HD. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think the process is to reduce the resolution of the raw image then upconvert to full 1080i and the result after mpeg2 compression would be less bandwidth size than if the original image was at the true 2 MegaPixels.

Ahh, it just reminded me how much better 720p60 than any interlaced... I'm dreaming about 1080p60... :

 

[Bruno]

Ok I am not a geek but i always read that Dish PQ is better than DTV. Can some one tell me just what DTV HD is like and in compared to Dish?

Thanks
Bruno

 

[AlR]

This part is completely bogus.

1. You're confused - they don't have any per resolution input, they can accept certain range of resolutions and display another range.

2. There are numerous 1080p sets out there, all are shipping. Sharp, JVC, Samsung, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Sony 1080p HDTVs are all available but you can save money by ordering from cheaper mfrs like Westinghouse, Sceptre etc too.

3. There are 1080p-capable DVD/HD players too: Denon, Marantz, Classe or the inexpensive NeoNeo.

4. *ANY* HTPC can output 1080p resolution.

5. You can already *BUY* 1080p-formatted movies, even online if you want.

Conclusion: 1080p has arrived and already took over the throne of 'highest available resolution'.

PS: I personally decided my next HDTV purchase will be 1080p-capable unit (I already have 1080p-capable LCD displays, even CRT but they aren't dedicated TVs - my current HDTV is 720p native which I consider superior to 1080i at any day, BTW.)

T2K
What JoeSp was trying to say is that very few 1080P sets can accept a 1080P source. Check out the 1080i vs. 1080p HDTV: should you care? at CNET.

 

[Barry Erick]

Actually, it IS the lowest form.
720p is the same number of scan lines as a (hypothetical) 1440i.
Conversely, 1080i would be 540p.

It is NOT as simple as that. Goes into eye perception vrs time. I've seen entire chapters and more on this and how various eyes perceive this. There have been countless papers on it. How TV's can display some with field and frame delays complicate this.

Your comparison, however, is accepted by most. While in actual scan lines, it is correct, how intrepreted is not.

 

[SimpleSimon]

It is NOT as simple as that. Goes into eye perception vrs time. I've seen entire chapters and more on this and how various eyes perceive this. There have been countless papers on it. How TV's can display some with field and frame delays complicate this.

Your comparison, however, is accepted by most. While in actual scan lines, it is correct, how intrepreted is not.

No argument there - I was just counting pixels.