Random loss of signal - need help trouble shooting

Micasa

Member
Original poster
Oct 17, 2014
7
0
NYC
I have 4 BellTV receivers, 2 6100, 1 6400 and 1 3100. I am using SW44 and the power box for switch is inside my house. System has been installed since Bell TV was launched and upgraded to HDTV about 3 years ago. Transponder readings are between 50-70, as seen on the receiver screens. I normally "lose" the signal in bad weather, probably like every one else.

I have encountered a problem and I am not sure which way to go with it.

I spent 8 weeks away on a trip to Asia this summer. When I got back, my 2nd half tells me that the 6400 receiver is dead. I check, no satellite input. I go to my 3100 to see the sat levels there and all of a sudden, the 6400 comes to life. The other 2 receivers are working fine.

About 2 weeks ago, the same receiver is dead again. This time, there is no coming back. I move it to other locations and there are no signal inputs at all. It had millions of errors when I did the diagnostics. I ordered and received another 6400. I installed it this morning and it worked within 1 minute. In other words, I concluded that my old 6400 was simply dead and that it was simply a coincidence that it came back to life (temporarily) when it did.

Last night, watching my beloved Habs, one of my 6100 randomly goes dead. Nothing on any of the transponders. I go outside, light overcast sky, no rain, no wind. I check the other 6100, same thing: no signal on either SAT but I did not check every transponder. I go to my 3100, signal on N82 T16 only. Signal at about 60%. Nothing on any of the other transponders. Within about 10 minutes, the 6100 comes back to life, initially only for analog and after 30 minutes, full HD on all channels. I checked the transponder signals and all is back to normal, between 55 and 75% which I will call normal for here.

When my 2nd half got home, she mentioned that over the summer (when I was away), at least once, the signal disappeared randomly, for no reason at all and came back to life on its own. In other words, I have some sort of intermittent failure (something that could have killed the 6400?).

I checked my SW power supply, nothing unusual,. I checked my SW44 (outside in an all-weather enclosure), nothing unusual noted. I checked the grounding which goes directly to the SW. Nothing noted. I saw that I have 2 crimp fittings on SAT1 and 2 compression fittings on SAT2 but since the cables are more or less static and the fittings protected from the elements, I can't see water getting inside. The SW44 itself is warm to touch but I assume that it's normal. I have not gone on roof as I don't know what I would look for there (apart from the bees' nest inside the mast!).

Any help appreciated!
 
The 3100 showing TP16 only is normal, it cannot see the other TP's.

The Power Inserter connection is notorious for failure to stay connected, check that again, ensuring that it goes in and you turn it Clockwise to lock it in position.

Also, just because you have no rain or bad weather in your area, does not mean there is no problem between the uplink (In Scarborough, Ontario) and the Birds over the Equator. There was bad flooding in Toronto last night, so there must have been very localized heavy rain somewhere.

Now, signal loss. Is there any chance a new splitter has been added, or something changed in the cabling ?
Or what about the possibility of a tree growing across the line of sight ?
 
The 3100 showing TP16 only is normal, it cannot see the other TP's.

The Power Inserter connection is notorious for failure to stay connected, check that again, ensuring that it goes in and you turn it Clockwise to lock it in position.

Also, just because you have no rain or bad weather in your area, does not mean there is no problem between the uplink (In Scarborough, Ontario) and the Birds over the Equator. There was bad flooding in Toronto last night, so there must have been very localized heavy rain somewhere.

Now, signal loss. Is there any chance a new splitter has been added, or something changed in the cabling ?
Or what about the possibility of a tree growing across the line of sight ?


#1 There are no line of sight problems. Plus, why would these be intermittent?
#2 There are no splitters. All lines go directly to SW44.
#3 I don't follow your reasoning about T16. Once the "signal" was back on, I could see signal on all transponders on both SAT from the 3100 configuration screen.
#4 I will check the power inserter again.
 
#1 Trees move
#2 good
#3 Then you have the ONLY 3100 to do that as most TP's are MPEG4 which the 3100 cannot decode.
#4 Cool
#5 Oh, you also do not have a working 6100 on Bell TV, they were discontinued and now only work for OTA reception.
 
I was also watching the Montreal -v- Bruins on SN360 and the services dropped off twice, a few minutes apart. I switched to my Dish with NHL CI and received a strong signal and continued to watch the game.
This happened in the first period, in the third period I switched back to the Bell feed and it was fine.
 
More details and clarification.

My 2 6100 are actually 6131. Thanks for pointing out the error.

On my 3100 (tried this morning), I can see N91 (most transponders but several at 0%) and N82 (T15 and T16 at 60%). Perhaps this is normal as Slaribartfarst noted.

Line of sight problems: As I said, when the problem occurred, there was no wind and in any event, I don't have branches or limbs in line of sight. I will file it under last resort when I go to the roof. When I encountered a real obstruction (heavy snow that stuck to dish), the signal recovered nearly as soon as the obstruction was removed. It did not last 30 minutes AFTER the obstruction was removed.

Is it normal to have transponders at zero and others at 75% at the same time?

Can LNB create intermittent failures? Could the crimp coax fittings at the LNB create intermittent problems?

The LNBs were upgraded when I converted to HD so they are 3 years old. The crimp coax on roof are 10+ years.
 
It is NOT normal on 91 to have TP's at 0%. 75% is low.

This time of year I have found wasps or ladybugs, inside LNBF's, causing intermittent problems. You just never know.

Crimped connectors are never a good thing with Sat Signals due to the high frequencies used, I would certainly swap them out for Compression Fittings. If the connectors are 10 years old, would I be correct to guess that is also the age of the cable ? If it is, then it might be time for a rewire anyway.

To be honest 3 year old LNBF's should be just fine, I come across LNBF's on old 18" Dish's that have been running for 15+ years. The LNBF's on 91 & 82 are identical, so swapping them over should help to see if there is an issue with one of them.

The setup you have is now considered as obsolete, Bell do not use that equipment any more. Before you spend money, replacing the SW44 or Power Supply (if that is what the troubleshooting points towards) I would look at getting a DPP Quad LNBF. I can point you towards them for about $50 inc shipping. This would replace BOTH LNBF's, SW44, Power Inserter and Power supply.
 
I will run a T by T test on both sats later today and report. I did not think it was normal to have some Ts at zero and others at 75%. BTW, for my position, 75% is good.

Now to the cabling: I thought about it as a problem. The exterior shows some sun degradation and the long length could have "pulled" on the crimp connector over time, creating corrosion , etc. Time to upgrade but it's raining today so may be tomorrow.

Other things I found in other forums: a bird perching on dish, leaves landing on dish (it is autumn after all) or insects (within the arm or the mast). Will look for all that when I go to roof.

Upgrading entire system? I will look into it. Must be done before winter sets in though.
 
I checked all T on both N91 and N82 (on 6131). On N91, I get about 65 on odd T and 70 on even T. On N82, I get about 55 on odd and even.

Chaining dish size is probably a good idea but it has a long lead time. Weather was bad today so I had not time to go to roof for full inspection.
 
Update

Went to dish. Diameter is 20". Both LNBF seemed to be in good shape. I checked all coax. Condition acceptable. The grounding screw seemed a little rusty but the cables are grounded anyway so I did not worry about it (plus is was windy). The dish is rock solid and it has not moved since I installed it. While I was up there, I checked LOS and it seems fine. I am already at the apex of roof so I am not sure where I would go it I had LOS issues. I did find spiders inside the arm and spider webs in front of the LNBF but removing the webs had no effect on signal.

Bottom line: I am not finding anything obviously wrong. I will continue to monitor and look into upgrading the entire dish assembly. I will report back when the sudden drop happens again (if it happens again).
 

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