SOund Advice

Someone like me that has a 720p tv 12 ft away would not see the benefit of buying another tv that was 1080p. Period.

When I invest in my projector, Ill go 1080p because its a year away(allow price to drop more) and Id like 100" 's.

If I was to buy now, Id buy a 720p and not look back.
 
if there really is no difference
There could be differences (see *NOTE* below).
...why do they make both kinds
Capabilities of the silicon used: 1080i is old and cheap, 1080p - new and expensive.
...how can they get away with charging so much more
For the same reason Porshe/Ferrari/Bently/etc. are still in business.
...and why do so many supposedly knowledgeable people on this forum go for the more expensive 1080p models?
Because they have the money? Have golden eyes? Want bragging rights?

*NOTE*
Let's consider a motion picture originally made on film (not anime, not video). It is shot 24 frames per second (24fps). Those frames are scanned and processed. Every studio does this processing their own way and it is not that important (because they will never tell you what they do). What is important, compressed 4:2:2/10bit AVI file arrives at the encoding facility (Warner and Sony do encoding in-house, the rest of the studios - outsource). At this point decisions are made about what audio/video codecs to use, what bitrate is available (audio and video are dealt with separately) and the rest (PiP, bonus material, games, etc.)

The movie is converted to 4:2:0/8bit and encoded using the chosen codecs as 1080/24p, i.e. each frame is encoded as progressive (non-interlaced) and there are 24 of those per second.

The process described above is a bit simplistic but exactly the same for both HD/BD.

The differences start when you look how those bits are stored on the disc (leaving aside the AACS, BD+, etc. for the moment).
Both formats have the encoded bits stored as progressive frames, but HD has them flagged, i.e. instruction how to deal with the stream when it is played by a 1080i player. No other differences. This is why Warner just uses an utility to convert their HD encodes into BD encodes (attaching flags).

If both, your player and display, can handle 1080/24p - everything is plain and simple (and identical in both formats, HD/BD). The flagging in HD gets ignored, the bits are pulled from the disc and unmolested (hopefully) displayed on your TV/projector of choice.

When the player and/or the TV cannot handle 1080p, each progressive frame is taken apart into two interlaced fields (the process is called telecine, 1080/24p -> 1080/60i) and transmitted separately. Before displayed, those two fields are assembled back into a progressive frame (the process is called IVTC, inverse telecine).

If every step works as designed, no information gets lost, 1080p and 1080i transmission and presentation ends up being identical as seen by the viewer.

What can go wrong? Or better, Who can screw up? Both, player and TV. The difference is, HD has one more "point of failure" when the transmission is done in 1080/60i.

We, consumers, are never told what players/TVs do with the signal. As has been reported recently, many of them don't do a proper IVTC.
Just look at Secrets' review of regular DVD players and what can go wrong.
Even fewer TVs do proper chroma upsampling (CUE) - nothing to do with interlaced/progressive. Another can of worms is over- underscan.
How many TVs that accept 1080p can actually do 1080/24p? If they do only 1080/60p, the 3:2 pulldown is applied - another source of errors.
How many TVs can display judder-free 1080/24p? According to Gregg Loewen, not a single LCD TV on the market can do this at the moment!

I've seen a Sony Ruby and JVC RS-1 (both projectors) fed 1080/24p video stream and displaying them at 72Hz. No judder! That is noticable! Much more than anything else.

Bottom line: if judder doesn't bother you (and there is a 99%+ chance that your setup can't display a judder-free picture), you won't notice anything else.

Diogen.
 
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bottom line is this. Best Buy tells youthat you can choose any tv in the store, or any other store for that matter. Which are you going to choose. 1080p or 1080i. I think we all know the answer to that question. If it wasn't better we wouldn't buy it.
 
I wasn't asking about TV's, I understand the difference there (and have seen it with my eyes) - besides, no one sells 1080i TV's anymore.

The question was about the players, and I think I get the gist from Diogen - in theory, 1080i can be just as good as 1080p, but in practice it might not be.... buying the more expensive player takes some of the "ifs" out of the equation.
 
bottom line is this. Best Buy tells youthat you can choose any tv in the store, or any other store for that matter. Which are you going to choose. 1080p or 1080i...
No. The bottom line is, you didn't get it.

Diogen.
 
I wasn't talking about 1080i TVs, but about those that can only accept 1080i input. Two different things.

Diogen.

Yeah, that part of my post wasn't directed at you... I think some others were confused and thinking my question was around the TV rather than the player.

After doing some research, it looks like my set only does 1080p/60fps. Still not sure I totally understand what that means to all of this, but I'm not sure I care either. The picture from either an HD-DVD or a BD is great, regardless of whether it "should" be or not, based on the science behind it.
 
...The picture from either an HD-DVD or a BD is great, regardless of whether it "should" be or not, based on the science behind it.
And that was all I wanted to say...:)

RE: 60fps
Since the movies are 24fps, those frames have to be "spread" over 60fps.
The way it is done: every odd frames is shown twice, every even - 3 times (12*2+12*3=60).
It's called 3:2 pulldown and introduces judder.
Telecine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Diogen.

EDIT: I was wrong with my post above, it's called judder, not jitter.
 
Diogen,

Less then 20% of HDTVs on the Market are 1080p. Of those, less than 1% accept 24p. OF those very few offer 72/96/120. Pioneer Plasma is one.

So is Gregg saying the XBR4/5 don't do 5:5 for 24p? They are essentially doing 3:2 pulldown and doubling? This contradicts SOny's site. Not That I don't trust Gregg. He's one of the best.

S~
 
Don't confuse fields per second with frames per second. I thought that some of the more expensive Toshibas would output 1080p. Am I wrong?
 
Less then 20% of HDTVs on the Market are 1080p. Of those, less than 1% accept 24p. OF those very few offer 72/96/120.
I think so.
So is Gregg saying the XBR4/5 don't do 5:5 for 24p? They are essentially doing 3:2 pulldown and doubling? This contradicts SOny's site. Not That I don't trust Gregg. He's one of the best.
I don't know. Haven't seen them in person.
By description, they should do 5:5.

He is probably right that no LCD did that before (120Hz meant frame doubling, just like 100Hz TVs in Europe do for years).

Diogen.
 
MSRP for A3/A30/A35 was $300/$400/$500 when announced.
I think they can be found for at least $100 less, but don't know for sure.

Diogen.
 
Someone like me that has a 720p tv 12 ft away would not see the benefit of buying another tv that was 1080p. Period.

When I invest in my projector, Ill go 1080p because its a year away(allow price to drop more) and Id like 100" 's.

If I was to buy now, Id buy a 720p and not look back.
I own 1080i and 1080p and I thik you are right. Problem is the manufacturers arent going to make the big 720p models becuase they can use the "hype" of 1080p and ignorance to make more money :rolleyes:
 
And that was all I wanted to say...:)

RE: 60fps
Since the movies are 24fps, those frames have to be "spread" over 60fps.
The way it is done: every odd frames is shown twice, every even - 3 times (12*2+12*3=60).
It's called 3:2 pulldown and introduces judder.
Telecine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Diogen.

EDIT: I was wrong with my post above, it's called judder, not jitter.
And that is the ONLY legitimate arguement against the Toshibas outputting 1080i60 but I just cant see the judder. I have the PS3 and the HD-A1 and the end result is identical IMO. And you know what? In all of the BluDuds arguements here I have not seen them use the ONLY legitimate arguement i.e "judder". But rest assured once they understand what it is they will jump ALL over that whether they can really see it or not. :rolleyes:
 
I own 1080i and 1080p and I thik you are right. Problem is the manufacturers arent going to make the big 720p models becuase they can use the "hype" of 1080p and ignorance to make more money :rolleyes:

Agreed, 1080p is unneeded but allowing for high tv prices as 720p models get CHEAP.

If I cant ge a 1080p projector for $1k or less a year from now I will, if not come on 720p.
 
How many TVs can display judder-free 1080/24p? According to Gregg Loewen, not a single LCD TV on the market can do this at the moment!
Diogen.

Sony has stated the XBR4/5 series with the proper settings and fed a 24p 1080p signal will properly display each frame 5 times for 120HZ. Reviews of the sets have shown when fed an interlaced 1080i signal they will after a few frames, properly figure out the 3:2 and convert it to 24 fps.
 

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