What no one will tell you about HDTV...

[highdefjeff]

Yes, I did pick one.

True, a quick google search will yield several different results on what the "max" bit rate is. I guess jeff just picked one.

I picked the one from Dish Network Tech Portal. Here's the link:
Tech Portal : HDTV

1.This illustrates the point that digital signal is NOT "all or nothing".

2. It says that a lower resolution HDTV (or SD) digital picture can happen and it does exist.

The biggest point I've been trying to make is that digital picture quality does vary.

I wrote: " Just because you have the digital picture, doesn't mean you have the HD quality you deserve! There IS such a thing as variation in the quality of a digital picture."

When I originally posted, I didn't have all the "hows" and "whys" figured out, but after months of research, slow data turns out to be ONE of the reasons that a compromised digital picture could be on your TV.

I'll get back to how an installer can have effect slow data, and signal related picture compromise, but for this post, I would like to make it clear that digital picture is not "all or nothing" and a lower resolution (poor HD, compromised HD) picture can be displayed.

Agreed? Digital picture quality can vary?

And yes, I did get get banned from DBS Talk. My second forum to be banned from. And that does say a lot for satellite guys forum.

 

[vurbano]

Huh? You're trying to tell me that a higher signal on a dish receiver makes for a better picture? That is bull. I don't believe it 1 bit.

You are correct. The only thing a higher signal strength above a certain threshold will get you is less affects from rain fade and etc. For OTA iVe never seen any difference in PQ, you either get the signal or you don't. Picture is the same.

 

[Ronnie-]

I picked the one from Dish Network Tech Portal. Here's the link:
Tech Portal : HDTV

1.This illustrates the point that digital signal is NOT "all or nothing".

2. It says that a lower resolution HDTV (or SD) digital picture can happen and it does exist.

The biggest point I've been trying to make is that digital picture quality does vary.

I wrote: " Just because you have the digital picture, doesn't mean you have the HD quality you deserve! There IS such a thing as variation in the quality of a digital picture."

When I originally posted, I didn't have all the "hows" and "whys" figured out, but after months of research, slow data turns out to be ONE of the reasons that a compromised digital picture could be on your TV.

I'll get back to how an installer can have effect slow data, and signal related picture compromise, but for this post, I would like to make it clear that digital picture is not "all or nothing" and a lower resolution (poor HD, compromised HD) picture can be displayed.

Agreed? Digital picture quality can vary?

1) Again Jeff, once it is "locked" you get it. So in that sense, yes it is "all or nothing" If it is not locked you dont get a picture. After that all you are doing is reducing the possibility of rain fade, ect.

2) This is silly. SD exists, of course. Lower resolution HD?????

And no, a digital picture does not mean HD. I dont know if you got confused when you said this: " Just because you have the digital picture, doesn't mean you have the HD quality you deserve"
Can you clarify what your intent was, because I think everyone here knows that being digital does not equal being HD.

I honestly think your argument is getting worse.

 

[vurbano]

One could make the argument that a dropout affects signal quality However, that's true of
any digital transmission method for audio or video. Repeaking the dish (as someone said above) might help retain nominal signal at times with fewer dropouts.

A dropout doesn't soften the image or make it blurry. It causes other (far worse) issues. All of the video PQ issues the OP points to are strictly head end and we as consumers can't really control that.

:up:up

 

[jcrash]

This is BS.

First off, either OTA comes in or doesnt. If anyone will argue a 55% SS OTA is worse than a 90% SS OTA, they are a complete idiot.

I will. 55% = "NO PICTURE" on my tv. 90% will come in fine.

I have had situations where when I am on the edge of the line the picture will pixellate a large area of the screen semi-frequently without losing signal.

 

[Ronnie-]

I will. 55% = "NO PICTURE" on my tv. 90% will come in fine.

I have had situations where when I am on the edge of the line the picture will pixellate a large area of the screen semi-frequently without losing signal.

I think what he meant was if your tuner can lock on at 55 then you will see no improvement in PQ at 90.
Your argument is with signal lock

 

[highdefjeff]

Even Dish Network's words, not enough, smith?

1) Again Jeff, once it is "locked" you get it. So in that sense, yes it is "all or nothing" If it is not locked you dont get a picture. After that all you are doing is reducing the possibility of rain fade, ect.

2) This is silly. SD exists, of course. Lower resolution HD?????

And no, a digital picture does not mean HD. I dont know if you got confused when you said this: " Just because you have the digital picture, doesn't mean you have the HD quality you deserve"
Can you clarify what your intent was, because I think everyone here knows that being digital does not equal being HD.

I honestly think your argument is getting worse.

Clarification: " Just because you have "lock", doesn't mean you have the HD (or SD) quality you deserve! There IS such a thing as variation in the quality of a digital picture whether it be SD or HD. Digital is NOT "all or nothing".

Here is an excerpt from Dish Network training regarding connections:​

"A small piece braid left wrapped around the center conductor will short out the signal and any power on the line, sometimes enough signal gets through the short to deliver an impaired picture to the TV-- The customer will see a reduced data rate and pixeling of digital video or no signal at all if there was power on the line." ​

And this from the same training about connections:​

"The prep length of the dielectric is set at ¼". Too long can result in the Post not mating to the Port properly - which can cause poor ground continuity and shielding issues i.e. RF Ingress and egress and higher contact resistance which could damage equipment powered through the cable -- The customer could see interference in the picture, slow data due to increased Bit Error Rate, pixeling of a digital picture or as the connection deteriorates, no service at all."​

Seems that Dish Network is aware that digital picture isn't all or nothing.

If poor connections cause reduced data rate, and if
"The higher the bitrate, the more data that is processed and, typically, the higher the picture resolution."

can be restated,

"The lower the bitrate, the less data that is processed and, typically, the lower the picture resolution.",

and if
"The customer could see interference in the picture" and "sometimes enough signal gets through the short to deliver an impaired picture to the TV" (these customers must have lock or they wouldn't see interference in the picture, or an impaired picture)

Then, not only can a compromised digital picture be witnessed, but a lower resolution rendition can be seen.

When someone complains about their poor HD quality, they could very well be correct and poor connections could be a cause.

When you say, "Yeah....and this supports your early argument how? The installer or tech cant control the bit rate at the consumer end" it appears that you might get to learn something.

Because, ONE of the ways that installers can effect the data rate at the consumer end is by making poor connections and improperly prepping the cable. Or, one of the ways you would troubleshoot a poor HD picture would be to check all of the connections and fix those not to spec.

Again, I'm going to hold off on the signal issue (though there is a hint to it above - "slow data due to increased Bit Error Rate")

 

[Ronnie-]

You had to say all of that to say check your connections?

Of course you want to see if you have a loose connection, you also do not want your cable runs to be too long, ect. These have nothing to do with the signal from the sat and aiming the dish or the antenna to gt a higher signal strength though. They will not change the bit rate that Directv or dish (or your OTA stations for that matter) send the signal out at. Having a signal lock on the sat and having interference in your lines are two totally different subjects.

Seems more like you are jumping from thing to thing, with none of your arguments being tied together in a way that makes much sense. Just my opinion.

 

[jcrash]

Yeah, um bit rate is fixed. Think of it like the millimeter size of the broadcast if it helps. 35mm is 35mm. If you are seeing the broadcast, you are getting 35 mm, or whatever the bitrate is. Over the air, I've seen temperature, reflections etc, cause me to be on the edge of signal lock such that I had a picture, but portions of it would breakup.

But that is OTA, not DISH. If dish broadcasts crappy HD due to low bitrate, that has nothing to do with SIGNAL quality, it has to due with broadcast picture quality - in other words, you aren't going to get a higher bit rate even if you get a 600 foot dish and mount it on the empire state building.

Bitrate is exactly the same thing as the "128kb" indicated on an mp3 file. 256kb is better, but just because you install gold wires between your PC and the component digital decoder, you aren't getting anything better that whatever the file was saved at. Save it at 128kb, you play it at 128kb....same thing as the bitrates with Dish.

Get a loose wire on your component and you are either going to get the signal to your decoder or not.

 

[highdefjeff]

Wrong again mssmith

You had to say all of that to say check your connections?

Of course you want to see if you have a loose connection, you also do not want your cable runs to be too long, ect. These have nothing to do with the signal from the sat and aiming the dish or the antenna to gt a higher signal strength though. They will not change the bit rate that Directv or dish (or your OTA stations for that matter) send the signal out at. Having a signal lock on the sat and having interference in your lines are two totally different subjects.

Seems more like you are jumping from thing to thing, with none of your arguments being tied together in a way that makes much sense. Just my opinion.

It's all about digital picture quality, which DOES vary due to a number of variables.

I have just presented Dish's own words saying the picture can be impaired. You may wish to argue with them.

Let me tie it in with signal strength for you before you have an aneurysm.

Slow data is equivalent to slower or lower bit rate.

Dish Network provides this: "slow data due to increased Bit Error Rate"

So, and increase bit error rate can cause slow data. Bit error rate increases as signal decreases, or in other words, a low signal will have a higher bit error rate. Bit error rate is ultimately determined by signal strength, which is in the hands of the installer. (He can do little to change the noise in the system, but the connection quality discussed previously is related to what he can do regarding noise reduction.)

Both noise reduction, and increase in signal strength, increase the signal-to-noise ratio, which ultimately determines bit error rate, in general terms.

Since low signal (or bad connections) can cause slow data and increased bit error rate (resulting in impaired picture), and "the higher the bitrate, the more data that is processed and, typically, the higher the picture resolution,"

then,

the lower the bitrate, the lower the resolution, and

digital picture quality is not all-or-nothing, it can vary, and people do have poor quality HD from dish, even when settings, cables, calibration, etc., have all been checked. They know what they've seen and are looking for. And signal strength is the biggest variable, most likely the culprit, and in the hands of the installer.

When someone says "My picture quality is bad, poor, etc. with dish", and they have checked the other things (cables, calibration, settings,etc) they could have poor connections or low signal.

And, it is not a "psychological" effect when people report that their picture got better after a re-alignment of a poorly pointed dish. Actually, their picture got better.

And to jcrash who says: " Yeah, um bit rate is fixed."

Bit rate is "fixed" or determined at the broadcast satellite or station, but, according to Dish Network, it is affected on the receiving end by connection quality and signal strength, which can cause picture impairment or a lower resolution picture. Or, do I have to find a whole new bunch of words to repeat all of this, again?

 

[digiblur]

So with all that said and going by your theory....why does the guide work perfectly in a low signal situation?

 

[Ronnie-]

Jeff the end user can not change the RESOLUTION of the feed sent to them by repeaking the dish or fixing a loose connection. You have hinted at that a couple of times now. Also having a higher or lower bit rate doesnt mean that the resolution HAS to change for that matter. Picture quality and resolution are linked (in a way) but totally different things.
You seem to be getting your terms mixed up, and this does not help your argument at all

 

[Ronnie-]

So with all that said and going by your theory....why does the guide work perfectly in a low signal situation?

Or why is it not garbled to the point that it is unreadable

 

[digiblur]

Maybe we should move this thread to the Comedy forum section?

 

[highdefjeff]

Hey buddy, what's up?

So with all that said and going by your theory....why does the guide work perfectly in a low signal situation?

I reported that I hadn't seen that, but you say the guide works perfectly, eh?

Well, even though it is off-subject, here it is. You made me wonder what would happen, so I kept in mind your question while researching the stuff that can be affected by an installer. I am only really interested in stuff that a person can do to increase a bad picture, or optimize a system.

But, the answer is that EPG information is a static, basic, two or three color presentation that doesn't require anywhere near the amount of information to decode vs. a high definition, moving picture. (And even far short the amount of information a standard def digital picture needs.)

You're gettin' this, aren't you?

 

[Liquidforce88]

I can't belive you all are still talking to this guy.

 

[Sammy033]

All I can say about this is 'wow, here we go again'.

How about this? A bit may be 1 or 0, depending on how strong the electrical charge for that teeny burst is. Computers have no idea what a 1 is. But how strong is that charge? What is the threshold where it is considered to be a '1'? Each system has its own requirements and the idea is the same whether its cable or optical/light.

Say its not strong enough and there is a bit error. Unless there is some sort of error correction the receiver doesnt know this and it will do the best it can. But what is the point where X amount of errors will not affect the information but Y will? What if a bit error changes color information for a pixel from 10101010 to 10101000 (sparkles)? What if the error is part of the information the receiver uses to decompress a packet and it is incorrect or simply not recoverable?

Computer 1 sends a packet. Computer 2 receives it and sends back a simple hash. Computer 1 checks it against its own hash. If its the same then all is well. Otherwise send it again. Cable and sat dont do this because information is one way only. Yes this is 'Networking 101" and an over simplification. But sometimes the basics need to be restated.

 

[highdefjeff]

I can't belive you all are still talking to this guy.

I can't believe you guys aren't reading or understanding this. I just explained it, again, using only Dish Network definitions and statements. It is science, not speculation.

You guys don't understand digital signal processing or signal science because it hasn't been taught.

Decipher it yourself. Here are some of the sources that I have used find this answer.

Digital Science Links - HDTV Digital Systems Library

"Further confusion comes from the fact that cable modems and digital set-top boxes (STBs) can provide digitally modulated signal operating parameters such as RF signal level and SNR. These are downstream parameters at the customer premises, not upstream parameters as is sometimes incorrectly assumed." http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/cable/ps2209/products_white_paper

And some interesting observations by other people.
http://www.satelliteguys.us/hd-over-air-ota/117597-do-i-need-preamp.html#cooliris

OTA channels Vs. Dish Local channels - High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Signal strength, signal quality & tweaking the dish... - AVForums

That's all for today. Class dismissed!

 

[Hemi 6.1]

I can't belive you all are still talking to this guy.

I can't believe he's still responding!,Does he post in anyother thread? I don't think I've ever seen him in anyother thread. He must watch this like a hawk.

 

[Ronnie-]

I can't believe you guys aren't reading or understanding this. I just explained it, again, using only Dish Network definitions and statements. It is science, not speculation.

You guys don't understand digital signal processing or signal science because it hasn't been taught.

Jeff, your "dish network definitions" did not support your original argument at all.

I think the fact that it hasnt been taught (to you) is the main problem with what you are trying to argue. You are reading and speculating based on bits of information that you are trying to tie together in a sloppy way. You still havent shown any reliable sources or any valid reasoning that backs up what you claim.