A plea to Dish to do the right thing with Mpeg4 HD

[rad]

MPEG-4 encoders are finally getting to be where they need to be. I am sure that as Scott mentioned above Dish will have full HD 1920x1080 with good bandwidth next year if their new system gets off the ground successfully. But, I wonder how long they will be able to hold out before the number of channels out grows the new system and they start to compress again...

I'm still very courious on how E*'s going to do what Charlie 'leaked' for the new MPEG4 DBS service. With two satellites he's going to have 200 national HD channels, 100 LIL HD cities, all the current SD programming on the current MPEG2 system, IIRC. D*'s putting up four satellites that will be just MPEG4 HD programming with 150 national HD channels and 1500 LIL HD channels.

Just looking at the numbers you'd have to think that either E*'s really going to be cramming things into their bandwidth to make things fit or D*'s got some very inefficient MPEG4 encoders. Not saying that E* can't do it, just curious how they're going to and I doubt that anyone that really knows can say at this time.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Yeah are definitely scheming something, well just have to ride it out and see.

 

[kstuart]

You know you guys should just switch to that TV provider that has the highest PQ as its number one priority....

Oh wait...

THERE IS NONE

Oops.

Right Now, July 5, the HD PQ on Dish is better - Gary and Spike should read in this same Forum:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-hd-discussions/100468-i-cant-believe-difference.html

 

[kstuart]

I'm willing to go with the provider that is advancing HD now, and that isn't Dish! And when I look over at Directv, I see MPEG4 Locals in my area, which a year ago weren't there.

This comment is the perfect example of why none of the comments about HD PQ make any sense.

Spike, if E* did not add more HD locals, then the bandwidth per channel would be greater and the PQ would be greater.

If E* added everyone's HD locals, and all the HD RSNs that everyone is constantly screaming for in this Forum, then the HD PQ would be worse.

If you have 1,000 mbps and you divide it amongst 10 channels, then each has 100 mbps. If you divide it amongst 20 channels, then each has 50 mbps.

You people are good at spouting slogans, but you have no specific solutions.

E* is launching two satellites to increase its bandwidth. When they are online, the amount of bandwidth available to E* will be a fixed number. The number of HD channels they add is determined by comments on this Forum like "Dish is killing me because they have not added NESN in HD".

In order to increase PQ, they will have to add less HD channels, which means more customer dissatisfaction and more people changing to another provider with more channels and worse PQ.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Yes it is funny to see some of the big guys moaning about the HD PQ are also the same guys saying "When will Dish add (channel name here) in HD."

As I posted in the pub members area, I do believe that we are near the end of the HD Lite Generation. Companies are not going to show full HD because they want to... it will be because "The have to!"

 

[Drone35]

Hope ur right Scott! I think we are all hoping for that! I also think as Blue- Ray and HDDVD get to be more main stream and people see what TRUE HD looks like they will be demanding such quality from their providers, hence who has the best pq wins! But this will take time and for now its who has the most!

 

[Drone35]

Almost forgot, good to here from u Gary! We need someone to stir the pot again!

 

[fallout2600]

As I posted in the pub members area, I do believe that we are near the end of the HD Lite Generation. Companies are not going to show full HD because they want to... it will be because "The have to!"

And why exactly are they going to "have to"? What did I miss?

 

[Gary Murrell]

Scott I hope you are right dude

what I want is for every person that subs to Dish HD offerings to get a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player and buy some of the HDNet releases and a couple movies, then switch on HD-Lite trash, Dish phone systems would literally blow up from the backlash

there are many things happening here, worst of all and the one that bothers me most is that majority of HD subs (including a large portion of members here) don't even really know what real HD is supposed to look like and don't even a clue to such, that is what is sad and what Dish hopes for in their perfect world

I can't help but think down the road when HD really kicks off and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray (in addition to HD downloads) are the norm, Dish and Directv will have no choice but to do what is right, but that doesn't or didn't apply to SD and customers comparing it to DVD, so who knows

I for one would be happy with 5 HD channels full blast untouched vs 30 garbage ones, people miss the whole point of HD, it is supposed to be this amazing image that everytime you turn it on you are like "damn"

HD-Lite just doesn't do that and in fact with a high-end scaler (like the DVDO VP50) and SDI modified DVD player one can equal HD-Lite image quality with thousands of DVD's

-Gary

 

[Gary Murrell]

and yes, glad to be back around checking in on things, I may prepare for august with some new equipment adding a simple HD receiver to my account and report bitrates and resolutions

-Gary

 

[JimK2]

DISH HD looks pretty good to me. One good thing HBO HD MPEG4 stream will be 8 Mbps, and HBO has mandated that the provider not reduce the bit-rate.
HBO Emboldens Transition to MPEG-4 | Telecompetitor

When did Dish ever have anything better than 3 mpeg2 HD channels per 8PSK 39.627Mbps transponder

8PSK 21500 SR 2/3 FEC RS 188/204 = data rate 39.627Mbps.
SR = symbol rate
FEC = foward error correction
RS = Reed–Solomon error correction

Echostar 11 will have hgher power (better receiver s/n) and will allow 8PSK 21500 SR 5/6 FEC RS 188/204 with a data rate 53.750 Mbps or 8PSK 21500 SR 7/8 FEC RS 188/204 with a data rate 56.43Mbps. Six months or so ago, if I remember right, Dish only had one 8psk transponder with 3 HD channels and now its looks like all the HD channels are 8psk including VOOM.

HD - EchoStar 8 at 110.0°W - LyngSat
HD - EchoStar 5 at 129.0°W - LyngSat
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-131088

 

[Gary Murrell]

if anyone thinks Dish looks good currently then they should see some real HD, I mean the difference is unreal on high-end displays

a year ago or a little longer Dish passed thru the HDNets on one 8psk transponder all by theirself basically untouched, in fact they were confirmed to be untouched thru Dish, they did this from day one, DiscoveryHD and a PPV channel a few years back on 61.5 were on one 8PSK, just thinking of that brings tears to my eyes, the PQ was so good

with the latest updated equipment Dish has the ability to treat HD with great respect and gain alot of room in the process, if they go for "alot" of space or "tons" of space is the ultimate question and why I started this thread

I think we shall see come mid august

-Gary

 

[riffjim4069]

I will maintain a high-level of hopeful scepticism ; seeing is believing.

 

[nazz]

I have faith in what Scott is saying but patience is not a virtue of mine. I have the same experience as Gary describes with what the satellite HD used to look like. The dramatic difference that you experience when popping in a nice HD-DVD vs current HD PQ is startling. It is my hope that the future of HD on E* is as Scott says, but a year is a long time after already biting at the bit this long. Hopefully we'll see improvement sooner but time will tell.

 

[JimK2]

if anyone thinks Dish looks good currently then they should see some real HD, I mean the difference is unreal on high-end displays

a year ago or a little longer Dish passed thru the HDNets on one 8psk transponder all by theirself basically untouched, in fact they were confirmed to be

Your only talking 2 channels back in 2005, all the rest of the HD Channels at that time were 3 channels per TP. Probably there werent 12 HD channels available
Dish Network Channel Chart (Unofficial) 12/3/05

Sounds like your "high-end" display is too good for DISH. Your one of those who will never be satisfied, I don't think you will like Dish or DirecTV six mpeg4 HD channels per transponder. Stay with OTA and BluRay HD.

HBO and Showtime look pretty nice on my crappy 60 inch SXRD. I've compared the same program on HBO HD Mpeg2 versus MAX HD mpeg4 and HBO is much better.

if untouched thru Dish, they did this from day one, DiscoveryHD and a PPV channel a few years back on 61.5 were on one 8PSK, just thinking of that brings tears to my eyes, the PQ was so good.

Waste of bandwidth, transponder bandwidth cost lots of money, are you willing to pay 2 to 3 times what HD costs today for 2 HD channes per tp. What did DISH have back then, 6 or 7 full tme HD channels.

with the latest updated equipment Dish has the ability to treat HD with great respect and gain alot of room in the process, if they go for "alot" of space or "tons" of space is the ultimate question and why I started this thread

I think we shall see come mid august

-Gary

 

[mike123abc]

I'm still very courious on how E*'s going to do what Charlie 'leaked' for the new MPEG4 DBS service. With two satellites he's going to have 200 national HD channels, 100 LIL HD cities, all the current SD programming on the current MPEG2 system, IIRC. D*'s putting up four satellites that will be just MPEG4 HD programming with 150 national HD channels and 1500 LIL HD channels.

Just looking at the numbers you'd have to think that either E*'s really going to be cramming things into their bandwidth to make things fit or D*'s got some very inefficient MPEG4 encoders. Not saying that E* can't do it, just curious how they're going to and I doubt that anyone that really knows can say at this time.

Gathered together from what is known it looks like Dish might use 2 slots 86.5 and 97. Dish says they are launching 2 satellites, one appears to be E11 (which they have filed with the FCC recently for a license to begin service) and the other appears to be a leased one AMC-14.

It appears that they are going to replace E8 at 110 with E11. E8 is a spot beam satellite with the spot beams turned off (E10 replaced the spots). They also have E6 sitting around turned off as a spare.

My theory is that they will move E8 and E6 to 97 (close as possible to 110 to keep the footprint good) and run them together like they did at 110 before E10 launched. Then launch AMC-14 to 96.5.

Note that this is only the start of the system. Perhaps only the top 25-50 DMAs in HD (they fit what they can on the spots of E8, rest on CONUS). Then they could launch more satellites to these locations to add more spot beams, adding more markets as time goes on. Essentially to do what they describe they will have to launch 2 more big spot beam satellites (like E10), one for each location.

I do not expect everyone in the country to be able to have a single dish solution pointing to the new slots next year. Only the top markets. Others could point a dish there for the HD and get the locals on the old satellites.

 

[kstuart]

I for one would be happy with 5 HD channels full blast untouched vs 30 garbage ones

Ooh, that's a really viable business plan.

Evidently, you haven't noticed that in a few months, all HBO and Cinemax channels are going HD (Dish carries 13 of them), and Discovery is launching 6 HD channels.

Over the next 12 months, I would expect there to be 100 requests to add more HD channels, for every one request to increase HD PQ. I would have to say that is a low estimate, it could be as high as 1,000 to 1.

PS If the current Dish HD PQ were so bad, then why would be people be so desperate for Dish to add their favorite SD channel in HD ?

 

[MikeD-C05]

My question is will DISH do all the locals in the 210 dmas in HD or not? Will they even finish the sd locals in the 210 dmas? IF not then Directv will have an advantage in satellite if they do the above and DISH does not.

 

[Gary Murrell]

I see the hd-lite apologists have made it to all corners of the earth

everyone hasn't been viewing HD from Dish for just a couple years or is a newbie, I go way back as do many others who know what True HD is and it used to be a thing of beauty on Dish, whether anyone likes it now or not

anyone who would take up for the current state of HD doesn't have a clue as to what it's all about, but to each his own

I am not desperate for anything nor have I ever asked for it, I would be happy with untouched HDNets, Discovery and maybe a few voom

back in 2001 people like me spent 750$+ to get equipment installed for DiscoveryHD and Showtime and I was one Happy dude with that DiscoveryHD from 61.5, I can still remember it, if someone did that you knew they were serious and cared about quality, sadly these people still exist (including me) but don't have a big enough mouth to fight HD-Lite lovers who aren't videophiles by a long shot

-Gary

 

[kstuart]

Sigh - standard Internet Argument style.

Start by stating "A".

Then, ignore all statements by others as to why "A" doesn't make sense, and, of course, State "A" again - as if no one else has said anything.

Why do people do this over and over ?

Because they have identified themselves as someone who believes "A", so they simply ignore all the good arguments against it.

Instead, it is necessary to find a disparaging smear against anyone who would dare to oppose what they believe, such as "HD-Lite apologist".

PS In reality, the coincidental post by MikeD-C05 (asking Dish to add 500 new HD channels) so totally crushes your argument, that I was tempted to say "game, set and match", but I thought that was unnecessary since it was obvious... but perhaps nothing is obvious to anyone who has found their cause...