Social Feed
Have you notice some commercials are much loader than others and the channel program? I don't believe those load commercials are from the channel program. They're injected by Dish. I'm wondering if this is intentionally done. I'm getting very annoyed over this. I'm wondering if other such Direct, Uverse, or Cable do similar thing.
31 Replies
·
5160 views
The problem has been known ever since more channels began using DD5.1. The real issue here is DD2.0 vs. DD5.1 If you study the encoding performed in the mux of DD audio, you will see what is going on. It is purely a technical issue and has a simple solution! Yes very simple.
But first of all, all of you need to get over that this is some sinister conspiracy on the part of Dish to annoy it's subscribers, or that it is done by the advertiser intentionally to make some spots louder than others ( except in certain cases). It's not. As I said it is a purely technical issue with a very very simple solution. BUT, unfortunately, the simple solution must be accomplished at the signal source where the audio is muxed to mpeg 2. This means that it must be done there and anywhere there is an insert of spots to the stream. That could mean that Dish holds some culpability in this as well but not all of it.
So here's the exact cause of the issue. If any of you really want to see which spots are louder than others look at the meta data in the Dolby digital audio. You will see that the issue is only present when you have DD5.1 enabled. In a receiver with only DD2.0, the problem will never show up. The reason is because DD meta data is being switched by the originating station between DD2.0 and DD5.1. IN MY OPINION, this is a huge mistake. However the problem comes with some caveats. follow with me on this for a moment-
Two different commercial producers have different capability. One produces a spot for General Motors in DD5.1 and the other produces a spot for Ford in DD2.0. There is no FCC regulation that requires one over the other. Now when each of these spots airs in a break, the DD2.0 will automatically sound louder than the spot with the DD5.1 audio. Note that both sets of audio are ALWAYS included in the mux but when the producer who only has DD2.0 present, the DD5.1 c hannels will be silent. The beauty of the Dolby system is that DDis automatically switched so that if both are present, DD2.0 and DD5.1 sets, the DD5.1 will be default unless the receiver is only capable of DD2.0, then that audio will be present. If you have only a DD2.0 receiver, you'll never hear the lower volume DD5.1 and have your audio adjusted for DD2.0 all the time. The reason why you may hear the difference is because your receiver is switching automatically between DD5.1 ( lower average volume but wider dynamic range) and DD2.0 (higher average audio volume with less dynamic range)
The simple solution is for a legal requirement that ALL commercials to air on any HD channel MUST be in HD and contain both DD2.0 and DD5.1. Of course the downside to this is that first, broadcasters will immediately lose advertisers in droves, those who do not have spots ready to go in DD5.1/DD2.0 mux in the digital audio stream. The SD / HD issue is simple enough to handle with upconversion. The audio is not so easy to do as an upconvert. However, Dolby does have a boxed answer. Unfortunately it is not cheap but it does line level the loudness between DD2.0 and DD5.1 . Last I spoke with Dolby engineers 2 years ago , they said the stations and production companies were resisting due to the cost. AS a TV spot producer, I'd have to side with the stations on this because the cost would seem to be less just to go ahead and add the DD5.1 sound track to match the levels during spot production than have to pay for a box to generate the mix. Furthermore, the box from Dolby doesn't really address the entire issue. It only resolves the issue when stations are switching the meta data in the stream. So, in reality, the only way I can see this technical issue being resolved is to require all programming that airs on an HD channel to be in HD and DD5.1/DD2.0. Then forbid the stations from switching the meta on and off DD5.1 and rely on the consumer's receiver to work the way the Dolby chip is designed.
I also spoke with an engineer at Echostar about it and they were working on a long rage method to resolve the issue in the VIP receivers using a form of AI in the software. This was a long range R&D effort and frankly, I don't hold much hope for it since he also said it wasn't of high priority. I recall he said it was on the same R&D priority as doing something cleaver with the black side bars when 4:3 AR programs appear on the HD channels.
I hope I explained the issue as I understand it. I interviewed several Dolby engineers on this, one CBS network executive, and one local station BE as well as two engineers from Echostar and trust me, everyone is aware of the problem and everyone understands the best solution is to require all programming to have the full mux channels and never have the audio switch during the broadcast.
One final comment about sound volume- There are some rare cases where a commercial will be produced with unusually loud volume in mono sound or even stereo that sounds louder than others. This is usually done when the producer orders up a high degree of audio volume compression to create the illusion of yelling due to script creativity. All good commercial producers know that annoying works in advertising so that is why they resort to it. If they feel the product can't motivate people on it's own merits, then they will resort to annoying to get the job done. Sorry, but that's just what they do. Loud is annoying, right?
But first of all, all of you need to get over that this is some sinister conspiracy on the part of Dish to annoy it's subscribers, or that it is done by the advertiser intentionally to make some spots louder than others ( except in certain cases). It's not. As I said it is a purely technical issue with a very very simple solution. BUT, unfortunately, the simple solution must be accomplished at the signal source where the audio is muxed to mpeg 2. This means that it must be done there and anywhere there is an insert of spots to the stream. That could mean that Dish holds some culpability in this as well but not all of it.
So here's the exact cause of the issue. If any of you really want to see which spots are louder than others look at the meta data in the Dolby digital audio. You will see that the issue is only present when you have DD5.1 enabled. In a receiver with only DD2.0, the problem will never show up. The reason is because DD meta data is being switched by the originating station between DD2.0 and DD5.1. IN MY OPINION, this is a huge mistake. However the problem comes with some caveats. follow with me on this for a moment-
Two different commercial producers have different capability. One produces a spot for General Motors in DD5.1 and the other produces a spot for Ford in DD2.0. There is no FCC regulation that requires one over the other. Now when each of these spots airs in a break, the DD2.0 will automatically sound louder than the spot with the DD5.1 audio. Note that both sets of audio are ALWAYS included in the mux but when the producer who only has DD2.0 present, the DD5.1 c hannels will be silent. The beauty of the Dolby system is that DDis automatically switched so that if both are present, DD2.0 and DD5.1 sets, the DD5.1 will be default unless the receiver is only capable of DD2.0, then that audio will be present. If you have only a DD2.0 receiver, you'll never hear the lower volume DD5.1 and have your audio adjusted for DD2.0 all the time. The reason why you may hear the difference is because your receiver is switching automatically between DD5.1 ( lower average volume but wider dynamic range) and DD2.0 (higher average audio volume with less dynamic range)
The simple solution is for a legal requirement that ALL commercials to air on any HD channel MUST be in HD and contain both DD2.0 and DD5.1. Of course the downside to this is that first, broadcasters will immediately lose advertisers in droves, those who do not have spots ready to go in DD5.1/DD2.0 mux in the digital audio stream. The SD / HD issue is simple enough to handle with upconversion. The audio is not so easy to do as an upconvert. However, Dolby does have a boxed answer. Unfortunately it is not cheap but it does line level the loudness between DD2.0 and DD5.1 . Last I spoke with Dolby engineers 2 years ago , they said the stations and production companies were resisting due to the cost. AS a TV spot producer, I'd have to side with the stations on this because the cost would seem to be less just to go ahead and add the DD5.1 sound track to match the levels during spot production than have to pay for a box to generate the mix. Furthermore, the box from Dolby doesn't really address the entire issue. It only resolves the issue when stations are switching the meta data in the stream. So, in reality, the only way I can see this technical issue being resolved is to require all programming that airs on an HD channel to be in HD and DD5.1/DD2.0. Then forbid the stations from switching the meta on and off DD5.1 and rely on the consumer's receiver to work the way the Dolby chip is designed.
I also spoke with an engineer at Echostar about it and they were working on a long rage method to resolve the issue in the VIP receivers using a form of AI in the software. This was a long range R&D effort and frankly, I don't hold much hope for it since he also said it wasn't of high priority. I recall he said it was on the same R&D priority as doing something cleaver with the black side bars when 4:3 AR programs appear on the HD channels.
I hope I explained the issue as I understand it. I interviewed several Dolby engineers on this, one CBS network executive, and one local station BE as well as two engineers from Echostar and trust me, everyone is aware of the problem and everyone understands the best solution is to require all programming to have the full mux channels and never have the audio switch during the broadcast.
One final comment about sound volume- There are some rare cases where a commercial will be produced with unusually loud volume in mono sound or even stereo that sounds louder than others. This is usually done when the producer orders up a high degree of audio volume compression to create the illusion of yelling due to script creativity. All good commercial producers know that annoying works in advertising so that is why they resort to it. If they feel the product can't motivate people on it's own merits, then they will resort to annoying to get the job done. Sorry, but that's just what they do. Loud is annoying, right?
Loud is annoying, right?
Don,
thanks for your input and as a 35 year veteran of the broadcast engineering community I agree with everything you said. But I would add that although "loud is annoying", "annoying is also LOUD". The very definition of "NOISE" is any sound you "DON'T WANT TO HEAR". So even if you get the commercial right it will almost always have more (not louder) sound than the dramatic program you are inserting into and will be annoying because it is unwanted. I was never able to make viewers happy on this subject because commercials will always "sound" louder even when they are actually at a lower volume.
Leon
Other citations:
Think TV commercials are louder than the shows? Listen up, they're not. | Lifestyles Archive Site - cleveland.com
Conclusions Drawn: Why Are TV Ads Louder Than The Shows?
Why are TV Commercials So Loud? The Commercials Always Seem Louder than the Show | Suite101.com
Sorry to bust all the HD geeks bubbles but that's the truth. Oh and BTW, if anyone bothered to even do a one line google search on 'Why are commercials louder than shows' you would have got the real answer and have had to make stuff up!
Think TV commercials are louder than the shows? Listen up, they're not. | Lifestyles Archive Site - cleveland.com
Conclusions Drawn: Why Are TV Ads Louder Than The Shows?
Why are TV Commercials So Loud? The Commercials Always Seem Louder than the Show | Suite101.com
Sorry to bust all the HD geeks bubbles but that's the truth. Oh and BTW, if anyone bothered to even do a one line google search on 'Why are commercials louder than shows' you would have got the real answer and have had to make stuff up!
TWiT Tech Podcast Network
Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1cPqRk5EyNs
Direct YouTube Link - Linux 7.3 Optimizes Gaming VRAM on 8GB GPUs #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1cPqRk5EyNs
Direct YouTube Link - Linux 7.3 Optimizes Gaming VRAM on 8GB GPUs #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
0 Replies
·
0 views
Staff member
HERE TO HELP YOU!
Cutting Edge
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!
So let the game continue!
The last song was added by Bobby who posted...
One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters
CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!
Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game
Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.
Example:
Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow
Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio
Another example:
Ride the Lightning -- Metallica
Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne
Get it?
An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
So let the game continue!
The last song was added by Bobby who posted...
One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters
CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!
Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game
Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.
Example:
Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow
Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio
Another example:
Ride the Lightning -- Metallica
Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne
Get it?
An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
68630 Replies
·
2678895 views
iJustine
Time for another AWESOME video from iJustine!
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bmgQFnQEqVo
Direct YouTube Link - New colors of the HomePod Mini 2! Blue, pink and green!
The official iJustine Website's Website
Buy her book!
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bmgQFnQEqVo
Direct YouTube Link - New colors of the HomePod Mini 2! Blue, pink and green!
The official iJustine Website's Website
Buy her book!
0 Replies
·
4 views
Pub Member / Supporter
House Passes AM Radio For Every Vehicle Act
(Washington, DC) - The U.S. House has passed the AM Radio for Every Vehicle Act, marking a major step forward for broadcasters and listeners who have pushed to keep AM radio available in new cars and
wabcradio.com
20 Replies
·
581 views
. can we say over priced garbage!!!
TWiT Tech Podcast Network
Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1gKXwyGz68c
Direct YouTube Link - Will AI Be Rejected in Game Development's Future? #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1gKXwyGz68c
Direct YouTube Link - Will AI Be Rejected in Game Development's Future? #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
0 Replies
·
7 views
Pub Member / Supporter
Hello folks, well my luck ran out last week with a nasty thunderstorm and after 39 years here, finally took a hit. Now, the FTA receivers I had for some years worked great until now. Recently picked up a fairly cheap receiver, online, KOQIT and seems to be good, but for the life of me, I cannot get the HDMI output to work with 3 of my Samsung monitors. I can hook it up to my Samsung TV and its HDMI input and it works fine. The 2 receivers I lost also worked fine with them, so am I going crazy? anyone have come across this or have any suggestions? And, since this is a somewhat cheap unit but works, what is everyone out there using for receivers these days? without breaking the bank? I enjoy watching FTA TV, so I will invest more if needed, what is a really good, detailed unit these days. I'm so use to watching a few of them HD channels. Right now I'm down to composite hookups, yuck! Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Frank 
47 Replies
·
1290 views
Take the cover off, show me pics of the board of the bad one and also the bottom of the board. I'm an old hardware electronics tech plus a satellite dealer; I fixed a lot of FTA and regular receivers. I may be able to fix it for you. And yes, they got hit by lightning; it's best to email me the pics at diamondsatellite@snet.net or call me at 203-232-8888. I give you a 50-50 chance of fixing it; I do have spare parts. my phone is a fliptop phoneHello folks, well my luck ran out last week with a nasty thunderstorm and after 39 years here, finally took a hit. Now, the FTA receivers I had for some years worked great until now. Recently picked up a fairly cheap receiver, online, KOQIT and seems to be good, but for the life of me, I cannot get the HDMI output to work with 3 of my Samsung monitors. I can hook it up to my Samsung TV and its HDMI input and it works fine. The 2 receivers I lost also worked fine with them, so am I going crazy? anyone have come across this or have any suggestions? And, since this is a somewhat cheap unit but works, what is everyone out there using for receivers these days? without breaking the bank? I enjoy watching FTA TV, so I will invest more if needed, what is a really good, detailed unit these days. I'm so use to watching a few of them HD channels. Right now I'm down to composite hookups, yuck! Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Frank
Gary
S
a good surge protector will help to.Hello folks, well my luck ran out last week with a nasty thunderstorm and after 39 years here, finally took a hit. Now, the FTA receivers I had for some years worked great until now. Recently picked up a fairly cheap receiver, online, KOQIT and seems to be good, but for the life of me, I cannot get the HDMI output to work with 3 of my Samsung monitors. I can hook it up to my Samsung TV and its HDMI input and it works fine. The 2 receivers I lost also worked fine with them, so am I going crazy? anyone have come across this or have any suggestions? And, since this is a somewhat cheap unit but works, what is everyone out there using for receivers these days? without breaking the bank? I enjoy watching FTA TV, so I will invest more if needed, what is a really good, detailed unit these days. I'm so use to watching a few of them HD channels. Right now I'm down to composite hookups, yuck! Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Frank
Seems like I remember that now, with my V9 I manually entered anyway on 105, easier for me to pick the channel later
IS Amiko MIRA 3 any good ???
Can you recommend the best to cover all bases. NO BEEPS on certain channels 101w (NEWSMAX ,NEWS NATION), a clock that keeps working STEADY for timed recording ,solid unit with good lifespan. My Amiko died AND my Linkbox has NO Favorites Button and BEEPS on many channels. Picking up 105 west with a NEW SHED IN THE Way with 6 foot Cband ..95 percent quality ...unbelievable.
Can you recommend the best to cover all bases. NO BEEPS on certain channels 101w (NEWSMAX ,NEWS NATION), a clock that keeps working STEADY for timed recording ,solid unit with good lifespan. My Amiko died AND my Linkbox has NO Favorites Button and BEEPS on many channels. Picking up 105 west with a NEW SHED IN THE Way with 6 foot Cband ..95 percent quality ...unbelievable.
10 Replies
·
268 views
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
3 Replies
·
66 views
Supporting Founder
Really excited for this season with Kentucky having a new coach and some really exciting recruits. Probably won't last long, but here's hoping this season is great.
172 Replies
·
2477 views
Once the 24 gets here, there won't be anymore Conference Championships .... or so they say.
Oh what the hell, we really don't need Conferences anymore either ...
