120 Hz LCD vs. Plasma

[yourbeliefs]

Yesterday I was stupid (or bright) enough to walk into Circuit City and look at some televisions and stands for my (hopefully) impending television upgrade. I walked by the 120 hz televisions on display, and they had "Pirates of the Caribbean" on with half the screen at 120hz and half normal, and I was shocked by the difference in quality. I was also equally (but not as unexpectedly) shocked by the difference in price. When I talked to a sales clerk about it, he mentioned that this was an LCD only thing to help compensate for LCD blurring, and that Plasma televisions did not suffer from such issues and that it is "standard" for them to look as good as, or similar to 120 hz LCD. I did not get a chance to look at any Plasma televisions.

I was planning on getting an ~40" screen, with 40" being the smallest I would go, but I don't see myself going into the 50" range. Price is obviously an issue. I was looking at either getting a Samsung (seems to be a proven winner), or Toshiba (Seem to be lower prices but still good quality) or a Sony (if there's some sort of AWESOME deal that day.) Is it worth splurging for the 120hz or the Plasma, and if so, which one is the better type to get?

 

[jayn_j]

Probably a religious issue.

I would be suspicious of those side by side demos. They are a "feature" of the tv in demo mode and in my experience are doctored to make the 120 Hz look especially good.

I would also be suspicious of the salesman's rhetoric. His job is to sell the TV with the highest margin that day. Just because 120 Hz is mostly an LCD phenomenom right now, doesn't mean that motion artifacts aren't an issue with plasmas.

120 Hz mostly helps with fim based pulldown as 24 fps film and 60 Hz video are both common factors. Thus you don't have the jerkiness that can occur in a 60 Hz setup. It also helps with fast motion scenes as the individual pixels refresh faster.

The "demo" seems to indicate that 120 Hz is sharper, and this is misleading. The only time it would apprear sharper is during high motion of film based material.

Is 120 Hz worth it? That is your judgement call, but don't let those demos sway you. Get a good quality source onto the sets you are considering and bring your own comparison source material. Go to the store during slow times and get them to let you play with adjustments and connecting proper sources.

BTW, any set you buy today will seem too small in a few months. I would try to stretch to the 50" because a lot of the stuff you are talking about isn't really noticable on the 40" set.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I would go for an LCD over a Plasma just for the energy savings alone.

For the 120 Hz that is up to you, I have one TV with it and one without it and both TV's look just as good to me with the material I am feeding it.

 

[8bitbytes]

Also, do a little homework and make sure the 120hz model you are looking at is not just using 3:2 pulldown to get to 60hz and then doubling the 60hz to 120hz for 24fps movies. They are out there...

 

[navychop]

You might want to look at a Sammy LN46A650. You might like the price.

I bought the 52" version, and I find my wife, far from being unhappy with the purchase, is gravitating toward it and beginning to prefer it to my 61" LCoS RPTV.

I still can't figure out how they get the blacks so good on an LCD.

 

[yourbeliefs]

Is 120 Hz worth it? That is your judgement call, but don't let those demos sway you. Get a good quality source onto the sets you are considering and bring your own comparison source material. Go to the store during slow times and get them to let you play with adjustments and connecting proper sources.

BTW, any set you buy today will seem too small in a few months. I would try to stretch to the 50" because a lot of the stuff you are talking about isn't really noticable on the 40" set.

I think part of my issue is that I'm "used" to my current setup, which you can see in my profile isn't that great. Therefore, I may be more easily amazed by the newest things but not be able to put the viewing in proper "perspective." I mean many of us did not realize how great HDTV was until we sat and watched the Super Bowl in HD or a Blu Ray movie and then looked back at what we were currently using.

I will primarily be using my HDTV to play video games, watch television, watch Blu Ray, and to watch TV DVDs (in that order of frequency.) One of the criticisms I've seen with 120hz is that it sort of "speeds up" the picture, making them look more like video and less like film. To me, that's a selling point for me. I'm not here to argue which is better, but as far as personal preference, I prefer that it look as real as possible, versus keeping that "film" look. It is my understanding that the 120 hz mode is an "option" that you can turn off if necessary, so if a movie looks weird with it on I can disable it.

As far as getting a "demo" for comparison at the store, does anyone have any tips for how to do this? I'm not sure if I come in with Blade Runner and Iron Man on BD that they will let me look at two TVs side by side playing it at the same time, or to go around and try out the stuff on various televisions. Has anyone had any luck with this, or should I go in with my dad because they'll see an older guy with more money to spend and thus would look like more of a potential sale?

 

[jayn_j]

As far as getting a "demo" for comparison at the store, does anyone have any tips for how to do this? I'm not sure if I come in with Blade Runner and Iron Man on BD that they will let me look at two TVs side by side playing it at the same time, or to go around and try out the stuff on various televisions. Has anyone had any luck with this, or should I go in with my dad because they'll see an older guy with more money to spend and thus would look like more of a potential sale?

Age certainly gains respect in this society. Having your dad along will help, but the real part is letting them know that you have real money to spend and will spend it there if they can address your issues. Again, go during a dead period, like mid-morning, mid-week. Be polite. Explain exactly what you want to see. And finally, limit what you need to just a few sets and a single Blu-Ray player. Set it up for quick connections (just plug in HDMI and go). Do the research on how to get a picture close to what you want (movie mode is generally 'close'). Then plug and observe with the salesman hovering. Be prepared to buy at the end of the comparison and you will have no trouble.

Personally, I think you are underrating the Toshibas, especially the Regzia models. I would rank them above the Samsungs at the same size and price point. I do agree with the three you are planning to evaluate

 

[tigerfan33]

I still can't figure out how they get the blacks so good on an LCD.

Get it calibrated and the blacks will get blacker.

 

[yourbeliefs]

Personally, I think you are underrating the Toshibas, especially the Regzia models. I would rank them above the Samsungs at the same size and price point. I do agree with the three you are planning to evaluate

My dad actually has two Toshiba, one Regza and one DLP, and both exhibit great picture quality, with one of them being a Consumer Reports Best Buy.
I found this Regza that caught my eye: Toshiba | 42XV540U: 42.0" Diagonal REGZA® LCD TV

One thing that I'm a little wary of with this and the Sammy model mentioned above is that they're all available only through online retailers. I can't see these televisions side by side or even just in person. Should I just look for a place that has a really good return policy so that I'm not stuck with something I'm not satisfied with?

How about Costco models, or rather the televisions they sell in store (not online)? Unfortunately they don't typically have stuff on the televisions that are good representatives of HD quality (numerous times they've had on the Star Wars movies on DVD on their 55"+ show models) nor do I think they have BD players hooked up to the televisions for testing. I really like their prices and warranty policy, but that's no good if the models they're selling just aren't that good. Can anyon attest to the general quality of the televisions they sell?

 

[markmi300]

Yesterday I was stupid (or bright) enough to walk into Circuit City and look at some televisions and stands for my (hopefully) impending television upgrade. I walked by the 120 hz televisions on display, and they had "Pirates of the Caribbean" on with half the screen at 120hz and half normal, and I was shocked by the difference in quality. I was also equally (but not as unexpectedly) shocked by the difference in price. When I talked to a sales clerk about it, he mentioned that this was an LCD only thing to help compensate for LCD blurring, and that Plasma televisions did not suffer from such issues and that it is "standard" for them to look as good as, or similar to 120 hz LCD. I did not get a chance to look at any Plasma televisions.

I was planning on getting an ~40" screen, with 40" being the smallest I would go, but I don't see myself going into the 50" range. Price is obviously an issue. I was looking at either getting a Samsung (seems to be a proven winner), or Toshiba (Seem to be lower prices but still good quality) or a Sony (if there's some sort of AWESOME deal that day.) Is it worth splurging for the 120hz or the Plasma, and if so, which one is the better type to get?

I just got the Panasonic TH42PZ85U two weeks ago and love it. It's the plasma 42" 1080p. Price wise the plasma's I looked at were better or the same as the LCD 120hz. I went with the plasma based on the what I read online and talking with techs at Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears, etc. We have an LCD 26" 60hz in the bedroom and picture wise, it's a world of difference with plasma being the clear winner.

 

[Zookster]

Make sure reflections from windows won't be an issue with your TV set up. For the value and picture quality, I would love to go plasma, getting the same model markmi300 got, but even with it's "anti-reflective" screen (which I've seen in the stores) I'm a bit wary as my living room is surrounded by windows. As it is, with my 1080i CRT TV, I pretty much can't play video games during the day. Since you seem to play a lot, make sure you don't really need a matte screen. Even the Sammy 650 series tV have a very reflective glossy screen. As it currently stands, I'm waiting for the new Sammy 630s (which apparently have matte screens) to come down in price.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Yesterday I was stupid (or bright) enough to walk into Circuit City and look at some televisions and stands for my (hopefully) impending television upgrade. I walked by the 120 hz televisions on display, and they had "Pirates of the Caribbean" on with half the screen at 120hz and half normal, and I was shocked by the difference in quality. I was also equally (but not as unexpectedly) shocked by the difference in price. When I talked to a sales clerk about it, he mentioned that this was an LCD only thing to help compensate for LCD blurring, and that Plasma televisions did not suffer from such issues and that it is "standard" for them to look as good as, or similar to 120 hz LCD. I did not get a chance to look at any Plasma televisions.

I was planning on getting an ~40" screen, with 40" being the smallest I would go, but I don't see myself going into the 50" range. Price is obviously an issue. I was looking at either getting a Samsung (seems to be a proven winner), or Toshiba (Seem to be lower prices but still good quality) or a Sony (if there's some sort of AWESOME deal that day.) Is it worth splurging for the 120hz or the Plasma, and if so, which one is the better type to get?

I posted a thread earlier (last week?) that showed current HDTV resolutions. Even the better LCD's only had a 600 or so which is below the 800 and 900's from the Plasma. The exception was the Sammy 950 lcd which is pretty damn awesome.

You can get a Panny 85u in a 50" for less than two grand normally on Amazon, dunno what your price range is.

The Sammy 650/750 are good tv's too, I just prefer plasma and the 950 is prob the first LCD id consider over a plasma.

 

[gadgtfreek]

You might want to look at a Sammy LN46A650. You might like the price.

I bought the 52" version, and I find my wife, far from being unhappy with the purchase, is gravitating toward it and beginning to prefer it to my 61" LCoS RPTV.

I still can't figure out how they get the blacks so good on an LCD.

Get it calibrated and the blacks will get blacker.

Cough - Gregg Loewen - Cough

 

[allargon]

I would go for an LCD over a Plasma just for the energy savings alone.

For the 120 Hz that is up to you, I have one TV with it and one without it and both TV's look just as good to me with the material I am feeding it.

A rear projection DLP has better energy savings than both. I would buy a plasma (better PQ and wider viewing angles from the Panny's and Pioneers hands down) over both unless I had a room with a lot of light/windows (reflections) or needed a display smaller than 42". I would only buy a LCD if I had a room with a lot of reflections or needed a display smaller than 42". That's just me.

Toshiba LCD's are good, but I wouldn't put them in the same end as Sony or Samsung.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I would never base my tv decision on power consumption, sorry.

 

[yourbeliefs]

I posted a thread earlier (last week?) that showed current HDTV resolutions. Even the better LCD's only had a 600 or so which is below the 800 and 900's from the Plasma. The exception was the Sammy 950 lcd which is pretty damn awesome.

You can get a Panny 85u in a 50" for less than two grand normally on Amazon, dunno what your price range is.

The Sammy 650/750 are good tv's too, I just prefer plasma and the 950 is prob the first LCD id consider over a plasma.

My price range is between $1-$2k, with $1.5 being the sweet spot. I'd really prefer to stay away from $2k. I was looking at some more of the Plasma stuff, and I see that they have 480hz processing. Using stupid yourbeliefs logic, does that mean that they are 4X "better" than 120hz? Is 120hz on an LCD a bit of a "poor substitute" for a decent Plasma television?

 

[gadgtfreek]

No, dont pay the 480hz thing any attention.

For $1500, you can prob get a 50" 80U Panny 1080p plasma. Very good blacks and it accepts 1080p/24, just performs 3:2 pulldown though.

Currently, other than the new Samsung 950, the 120hz does not solve the motion blur issue. The 120hz tv's that accept 1080p/24 properly do have a good picture (XBR/Sammys), they just dont have quite the blacks.

 

[navychop]

I got a 42" Toshiba Regza 1080 LCD for my in-laws. It's worked out quite well for them, good PQ.

Even if Toshiba was on the evil side of the high def disc war.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Hehe.

 

[yourbeliefs]

No, dont pay the 480hz thing any attention.

For $1500, you can prob get a 50" 80U Panny 1080p plasma. Very good blacks and it accepts 1080p/24, just performs 3:2 pulldown though.

Currently, other than the new Samsung 950, the 120hz does not solve the motion blur issue. The 120hz tv's that accept 1080p/24 properly do have a good picture (XBR/Sammys), they just dont have quite the blacks.

I was looking at a 50" Panny from Costco, and I just saw that they reduced the price. I don't know about posting prices on here, so I'll just put the link and you can see yourself.

Think it's a good deal for a good tv? I think they have them in stores so at least I'll be able to look at them in action beforehand.