722 - SAT 1 & 2 and OTA on One Coax?

[ND Sol]

I finally went through the process of setting up a 722 receiver in the MBR instead of just running TV2 to it from my 622 since we now have an HDTV in the MBR. The limiting factor is that I have only one coax line that can access the MBR on the first floor from the attic.

The installer that came out was on time, pleasant to work with and did a good job, but one issue remains outstanding. I asked him about running the Satellite 1, 2 and OTA from my antenna in the attic over the one coax, but he said it couldn't be done. But I thought from reading here, that it was possible.

I have two lines coming in from the dish. One feeds the 622 and the other a receiver I had in another bedroom that I turned back in and am now taking care of with TV2 from the 622.

He cut the second line and inserted what I believe to be a diplexer. One of the outputs from that runs into the single coax to the MBR. In the MBR, the one line goes into a DP Plus, which splits into Satellite In 1 & 2 in the back of the receiver.

So can I get my OTA antenna onto that line to feed to the 722 and the HDTV?

Thanks

 

[TheKrell]

Yes you can. You should have gotten two diplexers with the 722, unless I'm getting forgetful in my old age. They are not expensive, if you need to buy two more. They work in pairs, with your single cable going between the 3rd coax input/output on each.

The one in the attic has 2 "inputs" for OTA antenna and DPP satellite switch. The diplexer in your MBR then has 2 "outputs", one of which goes to the OTA tuner and the other of which goes to the DPP separator. You can identify which is which by the little icons on the diplexer.

All clear now?

Edited to add: how does your OTA antenna get to your 622?

 

[ND Sol]

Thanks, TheKrell.

I am getting the OTA to the 622 directly fed from the antenna (which has a splitter on it) as a separate line to the 622.

Reading your response, perhaps I need to complicate what he did and perhaps it wasn't a diplexer as I don't see the need for it given the scenario I see.

When he cut into the second line from the dish, he put one half of the line into the diplexer and the other half on the connection next to it. The first one would be to the dish and the second one directly to the bedroom.

On the direct opposite side from the dish input, he ran the single line coax out of it to the MBR. All good except no OTA. Next to that output connection, he hooked in the TV2 from the 622. So I have a connection that runs from the dish through the "diplexer" out to the MBR and a connection that runs from the 622 TV2 output through the "diplexer" to the other bedroom.

So I assume that I need a diplexer to put in in which I would take the line from the dish and the line from the OTA antenna and then separate them out prior to the DPP in the MBR. Where should I insert the diplexer? Before or after the current "diplexer" that is in the attic?

 

[TheKrell]

Oh dear. I started drawing myself a diagram, but now I'm confused about what your installer did. There's a technique called a "backfeed" that runs the output of TV2 backwards up that single cable for feeding TV2, e.g. through the attic. So, instead of sending both satellite and OTA antenna signals in one direction down the single coax, you could (or the installer did?) send the TV2 output backwards up that single coax. Are you sure the diplexer isn't in one of the two cables going to your 622, rather than in the cable going to your 722?

 

[ND Sol]

Sorry for the confusion. A diagram would be better, but I guess I would have to draw one and then scan it and upload it to a hosting site to get that to work. Would that be correct?

I think that his original thought was to backfeed the TV2 signal like you were mentioning so perhaps that is where the idea for the diplexer came in. But I pointed out that we had the coax from the 622 to TV2 already there, so we could just run that straight in. As such, I'm not sure what this "diplexer" is doing since all it seems that it needs to do is hook the lines together, which could have been done with a simple connector.

So what I have right now is this "diplexer" with four connectors. On the NW side we have the line from the dish coming in (which is the second line that used to go to the old receiver in the other bedroom). On the SW side we have the single coax line out to the MBR. On the NE side the line that runs into the other bedroom for TV2 now. And on the SE side, the line that runs from the 622 TV2 output.

Besides the DPP that "diplexer" was the only hardware inserted.

Does that help?

 

[TheKrell]

So what I have right now is this "diplexer" with four connectors. On the NW side we have the line from the dish coming in (which is the second line that used to go to the old receiver in the other bedroom). On the SW side we have the single coax line out to the MBR. On the NE side the line that runs into the other bedroom for TV2 now. And on the SE side, the line that runs from the 622 TV2 output.

Huh. All the diplexers I've ever seen are 3-port (F-connector) devices. It's possible that an installer has some oddball diplexer... Are you sure it isn't just a 2-cable grounding block?

You can take pictures with your digital camera and post them here if necessary. Yoiu might also be able to read a part number or model number of this "diplexer." Anyhow, what you want to do is definitely possible with 2 diplexers and some short coax cables.

 

[KKlare]

There seems to some confusion between:
Separator--used with short 3" cables between it and the 2 Sat inputs of a 622/722. This requires a DPP source at the dish. No, it cannot feed 2 single-input receivers.

Splitter or Diplexer/Multiplexer: splits the current from one signal into 2, 3, or 4 parts to feed RF signals to several devices and is never used on the Sat inputs nor on the dish connection. Used in reverse to combine 2 signals like the Dish RF output with an antenna. Each output/input is the same reduced signal.

Band-Pass Splitter: used to put 2 signals on one cable--say Satellite and cable or box's RF. It will be marked Sat on one leg and Ant on the other. Used in pairs, they can pass the DPP dual signals and an antenna/RF on one cable.

-Ken

 

[ND Sol]

Thanks for the replies. I have now gone into the attic to see what that device was that he put in and it is only a connector. No magic box.

So it looks like I need to insert two diplexers (or band-pass splitters). I thought that diplexers do the role of band-pass splitters since the ones I have seen have a Sat In, an Ant In and an Out to the Receiver. Am I missing something?

 

[TheKrell]

So it looks like I need to insert two diplexers (or band-pass splitters). I thought that diplexers do the role of band-pass splitters since the ones I have seen have a Sat In, an Ant In and an Out to the Receiver. Am I missing something?

Hooray! Clarity at last! Don't feel bad though; these hookups can get complicated rather quickly.

No, you are not missing anything. You need two diplexers to get OTA to your 722. I disagree with Ken's nomenclature above. A diplexer is a frequency-dependent splitter/combiner, as is the DPP separator. Neither are like the garden variety non-frequency-dependent splitters you can put in your old antenna lead in order to feed multiple TVs. The crossover frequency for a DPP separator is around 1500MHz, which is in between the two bandstacked polarization bands. The crossover frequency of a diplexer is around 800MHz, which is in between broadcast TV and the satellite LNB frequencies.

 

[ND Sol]

I called the installation company (they had left me a voice mail yesterday to make sure everything was okay with the install) and communicated about the OTA antenna and diplexer issue. They were very nice and after I explained the situation, they got Dish on a conference call. Dish initially wanted a $99 service charge, but the installer was able to get the fee waived. So the installer is coming back out to put in the diplexers and the OTA module on Sunday. Very professional all around.

Thanks for the replies!

 

[TheKrell]

You're welcome. OTA module? You must have a 722K. The normally $30 module is nice because it has two ATSC tuners, and also your 722K can view OTA on the TV2 outputs, whereas my 722 not K cannot.

 

[ND Sol]

Great, now you are making me think harder about swapping my 622 upstairs with the 722k since the 622 runs the TV2 that I have. But I know that is going to be a pain to move the recordings, redo my Harmony remote and get the settings like I want for the 722k.

 

[TheKrell]

One time $40 fee to enable the EHD on your account. Thereafter, you can move recordings from one receiver to another.

 

[ND Sol]

One time $40 fee to enable the EHD on your account. Thereafter, you can move recordings from one receiver to another.

Paid the fee within the first month it was available so I can move recordings off the 622 to a stand-alone hard drive. I was planning on moving those 622 recordings to the hard drive and then moving them to the 722. Are you saying there is a way I can move them directly from the 622 to the 722 without using the hard drive?

 

[TheKrell]

Are you saying there is a way I can move them directly from the 622 to the 722 without using the hard drive?

Nope, sorry. You are the EHD expert, not me!

 

[ND Sol]

Nope, sorry. You are the EHD expert, not me!

Wishful thinking. That would have been lagniappe.

 

[TheKrell]

Afraid that one went over my head. I've Googled "EHD lagniappe" without seeing anything obvious.

 

[KKlare]

... I disagree with Ken's nomenclature above. A diplexer is a frequency-dependent splitter/combiner, as is the DPP separator. Neither are like the garden variety non-frequency-dependent splitters you can put in your old antenna lead in order to feed multiple TVs. The crossover frequency for a DPP separator is around 1500MHz, which is in between the two bandstacked polarization bands. The crossover frequency of a diplexer is around 800MHz, which is in between broadcast TV and the satellite LNB frequencies.

Yeah, I never like the confusion of using the term diplexer/diplexor vs a simple splitter. (Actually it is a little more than simple unless you were doing a impedance-matching resistive T. They have a 1 or 2 turn transformer to lose less signal than the resistive version of a T.)

It should be noted that the bandpass splitter is also a little more complicated than a first glance because the high-frequency satellite inlet/outlet also passes near-DC voltage to change the satellite switch. That is why it will only have 2 legs--one for DC+satellite and the other for the lower-frequency antenna without DC. For some "powered" antenna amps this doesn't work--my guess--but they may have their own built-in or separate splitter.

For completeness of thought note that a simple splitter "loses" -4 to -4.5 dB of signal vs. -3 dB (.707 voltage wise) if it were a perfect power split. A perfect 4-way split, would lose -12 dB and the real-life version is, I guess, -15 dB or so. Take this all as a guess.

-Ken

 

[ND Sol]

Afraid that one went over my head. I've Googled "EHD lagniappe" without seeing anything obvious.

What I meant was that it would have been lagniappe (i.e. a small gift) if I could have moved the recordings directly from one receiver to the other and bypass the EHD.

The tech came over yesterday afternoon, put the OTA module in, and inserted two diplexers, so we now have OTA on the 722k. It will probably only be a matter of time before I bite the bullet and switch the 622 with the 722.

One of the things that my wife liked with the old set-up is that I had a wireless speaker near her sink so she could listen to her news channels while getting ready. Those were fed through the 622 TV2 out to a wireless transmitter, but now that didn't sync with what is on the MBR TV. So I moved another wireless transmitter to the 722 TV1 audio output and we have that function again.