811 Chicago area users - warning can't tune to WCIU-DT

rad · Dec 6, 2003

I just got my 811 this morning to replace my 6K. Everything going along OK until I noticed that WCIU (analog 26/digital 27), which remaps to channel 001-1 and 001-2 wasn't in the list of digital channels after a did a scan. I did a manual add for 27, entered the stations ID and saved it, but still didn't show up.

Here's a gotcha, channel 1 is assigned to control the back panel video/audio inputs so you can't get WCIU-DT to show up in the guide or tune to it. I spent the first hours with the regual CSR's (asking to PLEASE be transfer to advanced tech support and being told to shut up he knew how to do his job, got to a supervisor very quickly after that). The next 40 minutes was with advanced tech that understood the problem and tried to see if he could find a way to disable the back inputs so I could get channel 1, no luck.

Since nobody in engineering works the weekend he's going to talk to someone Monday AM to see what can be done about this issue (he's run into PSIP remap problems before an knows exactly what tech to talk to) and will get back to me by the end of next week. Just wanted to let others in the Chicago area that visit this forum know so they don't waste their time calling Dish. RAD

sclaws · Dec 6, 2003

Not 811 related comment from me, but I haven't been able to get WCIU to even pickup a signal on my 6000 for months. It used to work fine, but at one point did remap itself to 1-01 with just a black screen. I've had no luck since then trying to reacquire the channel. Oh well..I can live w/o that one.

gpflepsen · Dec 6, 2003

Why would a broadcast station be sending out PSIP info to remap to 1? Seems the problem should be addressed by them too. Channel 1 isn't a broadcast channel.

rad · Dec 6, 2003

gpflepsen said:
Why would a broadcast station be sending out PSIP info to remap to 1? Seems the problem should be addressed by them too. Channel 1 isn't a broadcast channel.

Guess they wanted to show up first on a program guide. WGN-DT (channel 9) does something similar, besides remapping to channel 9 they also remap to channel 75. The WB want's all their stations to map to 75 so wherever you go in the country channel 75 will be the local WB station.

I told the tech that if they find out that according to the ATSC/PSIP standards that channel 1 isn't valid to please send me a letter and I'll take it up with the station and if necessary the FCC.

Tom Forness · Dec 6, 2003

Same thing happened here in Milwaukee Channel 58--see the below e-mail I sent to DISH--Still waiting for answer
*********************
RE: 811 receiver Off air Digital Channel
Milwaukee ch 58 Dig 46
When I add this channel I get
82% signal and lists as ch 1 and the I name it 58CBS.
Click on save and its not listed in the channel list but is listed in the program guide.

Comes up in guide as 158CBS (Back Panel Video inputs) click on it 1-02 WMLW (Back Panel Video input2)
1-01 cbs-5 (Back Panel Video input1)
I get no signal when I click on guide (just a black screen) and it lists the prime time shows (instead of local programming as other off air channels do).

I tried to fix the problem by deleteing all off air channels and going back to factory default and starting over again. Still have the same problem.
(This did not happen with the 6000u)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your help,

Tom Forness
********************

normang · Dec 6, 2003

Seems to me that I have a local PBS station that maps to 1, so I could have the same issue when my 811 arrives late next week (barring problems)

I think the solution is to map the inputs to 9999 or whatever the last channel in the guide would be. Or create a software entry in the guide that says "inputs" and does not conflict with any channel mapping..

rad · Dec 6, 2003

Tom, in case you didn't know, Weigle Broadcasting owns both stations in question. Looks like maybe it's a company policy that they're remapping their digital stations to channel 1 to get at the top of program guides. hoping to increase their viewership. In the case of 811 users looks like it's backfiring on them.

Tom Forness said:
Same thing happened here in Milwaukee Channel 58--see the below e-mail I sent to DISH--Still waiting for answer
*********************
RE: 811 receiver Off air Digital Channel
Milwaukee ch 58 Dig 46
When I add this channel I get
82% signal and lists as ch 1 and the I name it 58CBS.
Click on save and its not listed in the channel list but is listed in the program guide.

Comes up in guide as 158CBS (Back Panel Video inputs) click on it 1-02 WMLW (Back Panel Video input2)
1-01 cbs-5 (Back Panel Video input1)
I get no signal when I click on guide (just a black screen) and it lists the prime time shows (instead of local programming as other off air channels do).

I tried to fix the problem by deleteing all off air channels and going back to factory default and starting over again. Still have the same problem.
(This did not happen with the 6000u)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your help,

Tom Forness
********************

Sparkman · Dec 6, 2003

Weigel also has no retrans agreements with DISH in either Chicago or Milwaukee. When Milwaukee locals are launched, CBS 58 will not be there.

DenR · Dec 6, 2003

luckily no one actually watches WCIU...LOL

rad · Dec 6, 2003

DenR said:
luckily no one actually watches WCIU...LOL

Normally I don't but every now and then they have a sports game that I'd like to watch, and since they aren't on LIL via Dish OTA is the only way to get them.

James Long · Dec 6, 2003

Rad wrote somewhere:
if you have a link to the standard that says they can't do this and get it to me that would be great since I'd have some annumition to go to the station and maybe the FCC with.

www.atsc.org is the site for Digital Television

On their "Standards" page is a link to ATSC Standard A/65B
Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable, Rev. B

The full standards link appears to be to a bad file, but the next link down is:

ATSC Recommended Practice A/69:
Program and System Information Protocol Implementation Guidelines for Broadcasters

In there it states that DT channels use for their "master channel number" either the channel number of their ATSC DT signal, or the channel number of their NTSC signal if they are simulcasting. If they have an NTSC feed that number should be used.

That being said, MANY DTV channels fail to use their proper channel number - usually sending PSIP master channel number for their DT channel instead of their NTSC channel. Also MANY broadcasters, including those operating under a license instead of an STA, are failing to provide other required elements like PSIP program guide information and accurate time.

It is a shame that this broadcaster has chosen to violate the standards and use channel "1" ... it is also bad that such an error causes a problem in consumer equipment that also shouldn't go around creating fake channel numbers.

JL

James Long · Dec 6, 2003

justalurker said:
ATSC Recommended Practice A/69:
Program and System Information Protocol Implementation Guidelines for Broadcasters

To be specific ...

The authors on Page 31 said:
major channel number
Entered once. (Use the same channel number as the NTSC channel number assignment. If no paired NTSC channel, use the assigned DTV channel number. For special cases, see text.)

The authors on Page 20 said:
5.1 The Basics
There are certain “must have” items and “must do” rules of operation. If the PSIP elements are missing or wrong, there may be severe consequences, which vary depending on the design of receiver. The following are key elements that must be set and/or checked by each station:
Including
Major Channel. The previously assigned, paired NTSC channel is the major channel number. See Section 6.3.1 for more detail and rare exceptions.

The authors on Page 27&amp said:
Section 6.3.1
The fields major_channel_number and minor_channel_number are used for identification of the service on a virtual channel. The major channel number is used to group all channels that are to be identified as belonging to a particular broadcaster (or particular identifying number such as 12 in this case). In the U.S., the NTSC RF channel is required to be used as a major channel number. In the example, channel 12 was originally assigned as an NTSC channel and the associated digital channel assigned by the FCC also used the channel 12 “brand;” so that all the programming for broadcaster “NBZ” can be accessed together through surfing or in a paper or electronic program guide. Services that are unrelated to the NTSC brand may have another major channel number. The minor channel number specifies a particular channel within the group with each major number. There can be more than one major-minor combination that points to the same components.

Hope that helps.

JL

811 Chicago area users - warning can't tune to WCIU-DT

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