Court ruling today in TiVo case.

[Anony55]

Ya, but every time we try to add a VIP receiver on a account with a DISH 500, the system prompts for a upgrade to the 1000.4 DISH and creates a work order for one. There are ways around that, but...

Tell me about it. I'm one of the guys that does own his equipment. When I ditched my old 2700 (that's right, 2700) for a 211k, I had to jump through hoops to get the OTA feature turned on because I had a D500.

I still laugh at the reason... "That feature needs a signal from a satellite that your dish doesn't see to be activated. We can send out a tech to install the dish you need." I'll never forget him telling me that my receiver wasn't internally capable of receiving HD or OTA (because those are HD too) without a new dish. When I told him I was watching HD with it right now on channel 5710, the few seconds of silence on the phone were priceless.

After enough round & round, they activated the HD feature on my receiver which includes the OTA function. Then a couple of months later, I put up a 1000.2 anyway & paid for HD For Life, lol.

To me, it doesn't make any sense to put up a Turbo dish for SD accounts. It's just as easy to put it up when it's actually needed as it is now. And some accounts may never switch. That way, you wouldn't run into a needless (and self imposed) problem every time an SD customer needs something.

Still, if Charlie was in a hurry to get old DVR folks converted... I bet he could work out some short-cuts through the system.

Cheers

 

[navychop]

With all the litigation going on, TiVo may not make it to the Supreme Court. But if Don is right, even after they fold/get absorbed, the executive suite may be facing some NEW legal woes.

 

[JohnL]

If the lawsuit does indeed continue on for a few more years, it appears to be in Dish's favor. Tivo's market share is continuing to shrink. It's likely Dish to trying to the use the Siege offense, in other words Starve TIVO out. If the DVR market continues to bleed TIVO subscribers then TIVO is indeed in big trouble.

John

 

[patrick80639]

There is a side story to all this that I discovered a couple years ago. While most if not all here are only focused on the technical aspects of the patent suit, I began to look at the money, as they say follow the money. With all that has happened there is some very interesting funny business going on among TIVO insiders WRT stock purchase plans inside of TIVO and the huge amount of personal profits being manipulated as a result of this suit and it's suspicious rulings. It's the kind of story we saw in other companies that eventually folded like Worldcom. All one needs to do is pull the SEC filings of insider trading and place them on a timeline over the past several years and then place the court rulings on that timeline to see something very suspicious events. I wonder if Charlie is well aware of this and is the main reason he will not negotiate to buy the company.

Disclosure- Although I have owned both Dish and TIVO in the past I have sold off all positions now for several months. I have not followed TIVO insider trading SEC filings since last year.

+1
This is the first I've heard of this. I must say, though, it makes total sense and I've suspected as much. Well put.

 

[DishSubLA]

Sounds like they are agreeing with Dish in it's entirety (i.e. that the requirement to disable DVR functionality was overbroad), but are upholding because Dish should have objected earlier if they felt they could design around it.

They agreed they do not continue to infringe (or more accurately, that the case would need re-heard), but there was a court order to shut down the DVRs regardless of infringement, and they are still in contempt of that.

Petition for writ of certiorari is probably coming. It will be interesting to see what happens. SCOTUS just might want to take up one of these techie patent cases.

Well Done translation!

 

[tnale]

622

Are my 2 622 DVR mpeg2 and subject to shut down? I think that they are mpeg4 and exempt. Am I correct?

 

[DishSubLA]

Okay, stupid question. If this only affects MPEG-2 DVRs, why not just let them be disabled? That way everyone gets an MPEG-4 DVR and Dish would be one step closer to converting Western Arc to full MPEG-4. Or does Dish not have enough MPEG-4 DVRs in stock to cover all of those who are affected?

I remember reading Echostar's last quarterly that they had taken a bit of a hit on profits because they had a very large inventory STB's (just sitting there). That stood out to me because I don't think Dish/Echostar ever had such a money sucking inventory of STB's, and all these STB's costing them money in the short term might be by Charlie's design, for a TiVo swap-out. Maybe ol' chuck has made the preparations some time ago.

 

[DishSubLA]

One of the analysts is sure to ask about the number of boxes , etc at the quarterly financial call. Do we have a date for that event?

Don't count on Charlie answering it as Dish (or any good company) rarely comments on such numbers. "We don't make public that number." "I can tell you that . . ." you pick: "not that many" or "we have made preparations," or "it won't greatly impact our subscribers." "We knew this was one possible outcome, and we have a plan." But no numbers given in the conference call.

 

[richyrich]

If I read all you right, this means TIVO wins; their patent, their mpeg2; the mpeg II dvr.............
By making e* shut off the devices, another appeal will be necessary, no matter what, they are affirming MPEG II DVR's

TIVO has been downplayed so much, and nobody was required to own their technology (did directv win against them?), no matter how it was accomplished, for so long now; the amount is dish and directs dvr users fees for the last 15 years, well, however long they charged for it's use. Not to mention the technology must be turned off. Take say ([number of dvr's issued at half users]5 million + 7.5 million)*((5/10)*10)+(1/2*5))[users fees half averaged from 5 per mo.])*(12*[years in months number]*15[amount of years used of technology, from 3 years after establishing a little dish] Let me get my calculator..............Could be quite a take back by them.................................looks to me like...........................................a large number will soon be emitted..................................They should have done a un-wanted takeover, TIVO might now be owed Dish.................................

12.5 million times 7.5 times 12 time 15 ===== almost 1 billion dollars..................

No wonder the stock is climbing..............

 

[DishSubLA]

Are my 2 622 DVR mpeg2 and subject to shut down? I think that they are mpeg4 and exempt. Am I correct?

Yes.

 

[csmith5111]

Not at all. Existing Dishes will work as always. Only if the customer upgrades to HD will there need to be a new dish.

Good point. But why not just get it over with. Early Christmas present. Of course it will b expensive but then they can get rid of the 311/322/381/811 and turn all to MPEG 4 and 24/7 HD rsns for everyone lol.

 

[DishSubLA]

True, but they do have a duty to inform investors of risk and exposure, if they know how to quantify it, no matter when it occurs.

But they don't have to provide the number. True, just the generic "unforseen . . . could result in loss . . ." That ALL companies have as the canned disclosure of risk. Investors see them as the equivalent of the flight attendants required spiel for putting on the masks and how to make way for the exits in case of emergency.

BTW, Dish has already disclosed, many times in annuals and quarterlies, the risk of the TiVo case specifically stating that they may have to shut-off DVR function and that it could result in large loss of customers and revenue. In fact, they disclose the risk on EVERYTHING, just like all the other companies.

So what's your moot point?

 

[Arcade]

so is that really why my 625's DVR functions worked damned near flawlessly.... and my 722k's don't? hmmmm I might have to beg Tivos' pardon then... or invite the plague of lucusts upon them that what caused us to get crappy functionality in the newer units..

and before the odd ball amongst says their 722k does fine ... I dare you to pause ... step forward several times, try a step back, and then unpause and skip back. (when you're in pause mode, the Skip buttons are supposed to single step / frame by frame in what ever the box's definition of a frame is) I've had problems with this from day one (for me that's Dec 10th 2010) and the backwards jump that occurs when the "skip" functions mess up is some weird marker or placeholder.. I had tried to check out a scene in a movie.. the first time it backed up on me, it was 10 minutes back.. skipped forward to that scene again, the second time it happened it went back to the exact same spot in that movie, but because I was watching it live, it was now 15 minutes back.. then it happened again.. it jumped back to that same spot now more than 20 minutes back.. etc.. it exists, its not "just me"

It is certainly not just you.
I have just learned to never use my back button while in pause mode on my 722k. I never know how far back it will jump. lol.
And don't get me started on the buggy software that causes the menu system to move as slow as a snail one day and then fast as ever the next.
If I ever go bald, I fear this will be the cause.

 

[csmith5111]

Yes.

He is correct in saying the 622s are MPEG 4. No risk of losing those unless the hdd craps out.

 

[DishSubLA]

Keep in mind that on Monday, Dish can have a licensing agreement with TiVo for 3 years; then the next day move forward in swapping-out the "infringing" DVR's. So, it might take several months or maybe a full year, but the idea is that Charlie will have TiVo out of his life forever at that point: no more licensing payments.

 

[richyrich]

74 million (lawyers take) and counting

What about people whom own theirs? For that, TIVO may ask for two of the provinces of Canada that have oil sands....

 

[whatchel1]

If I read all you right, this means TIVO wins; their patent, their mpeg2; the mpeg II dvr.............
By making e* shut off the devices, another appeal will be necessary, no matter what, they are affirming MPEG II DVR's

TIVO has been downplayed so much, and nobody was required to own their technology (did directv win against them?), no matter how it was accomplished, for so long now; the amount is dish and directs dvr users fees for the last 15 years, well, however long they charged for it's use. Not to mention the technology must be turned off. Take say ([number of dvr's issued at half users]5 million + 7.5 million)*((5/10)*10)+(1/2*5))[users fees half averaged from 5 per mo.])*(12*[years in months number]*15[amount of years used of technology, from 3 years after establishing a little dish] Let me get my calculator..............Could be quite a take back by them.................................looks to me like...........................................a large number will soon be emitted..................................They should have done a un-wanted takeover, TIVO might now be owed Dish.................................

12.5 million times 7.5 times 12 time 15 ===== almost 1 billion dollars..................

No wonder the stock is climbing..............

It isn't based on MPEG 2 or MPEG 4 it is based on certain models. How the different MPEG's come in to it is that the models that were infringing were MPEG 2. By getting rid of all the MPEG2 and going to MPEG4 all the infringing units will be gone.

 

[richyrich]

It isn't based on MPEG 2 or MPEG 4 it is based on certain models. How the different MPEG's come in to it is that the models that were infringing were MPEG 2. By getting rid of all the MPEG2 and going to MPEG4 all the infringing units will be gone.

Yes, but they did infringe for any certain period of time. Though they are not in contempt of not turning them off, they will still owe for the time they did. All models do both SD and HD; their signals are still being sent in MPEG II and MPEG 4. It was the fact they are "time shifting"; and that the dvr does no matter what "channel" it is on, or kind of tv receiver that does it. It will take some time, TIVO won against directv too...Actually, the digital part is what I'm looking at closely, because tivo was the first patent on HDD as a video recorder of "any" tv programs, and recording with a time shifter , their lifetime; came out before directv's, and had two recordings going at once, one for shifting (this is the "vague area" where "colorfulness" is said in the Federal Court), and the recording or time itself is still being recorded. so that you could choose "frame by frame" pause, ff to live, rewind, and still record (tivo called it "like a vcr" but on live tv. Actually, Replay may have the original patent, i can't remember who i hired first...................

i think...They infringed on a tv program recorder/time shifter in every Continent/Country/tv recording device they made...until the first court hearing of the day and time they did sue E*...Thereafter is another day in a new Courtroom, coming soon to a theater near you...

 

[Tyralak]

It would be a mess, because it is not as easy as switching the boxes out, most needs a upgrade from a DISH 500 to a 1000.4 DISH, plus maybe some rewiring done too. So, that can be a massive undertaking. Does DISH have enough of the 1000.4 DISH's, to upgrade all custs that have DISH 500's? I would think they would get as many as they can to switch and then turn off the DVR's and see who calls in, I know alot of cust's have DVRs like a 522 or 625 and dont even know that it's a DVR. I get the question on the phone all the time, why I am paying for a DVR fee, whats a DVR, I dont have one, you all just added it to my bill will out telling me. So, I think a share of people wont care if the DVR is taken off their receivers.

Job security, my friend.

 

[bigwillieb]

Job security, my friend.

So, true! Keep us CSR's busy with phone calls, and keeps Tech's busy with installs!