Discontent with out of state DMA

jspriddy · May 9, 2010

I searched for this and really didn't find an answer in the forums. Maybe I looked in the wrong place.

We live in Lamar county, Alabama. Dish and DirectTV offer local channels here, but they are from the Columbus-Tupelo (Mississippi) DMA. Obviously, as far as network programming, it doesn't matter. But local news is another issue. Most news, and some days, all news, does not pertain to us in any way. State government and politics, social and sporting events from Alabama are not covered. Weather news is another issue. Coverage of dangerous typically ends at the state line.

]Nearly everyone in this county who has satellite wants Alabama locals.

I've been through it with Dish and they blame FCC regulations and Nielsen. The FCC says they do not control it, it's up to the satellite provider to decide what local channels you get. The governor's office says that it's an issue between my service provider and me.

My question is, who is to blame here? The service providers, the FCC, some other government agency, or some strange bedfellows (politics make...)? Has anyone else fought this battle?
Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I'm new here so I may have overlooked a whole thread or even forum on this. My apologies

Mr Tony · May 9, 2010

welcome

Sadly Dish is correct. Nielsen controls what county is in what DMA (designated market area). The FCC says that Dish/Direct can only sell locals based on Nielsen DMA's...Sometimes when state lines are involved you do get locals from the next state which frankly I think is wrong

Looks like on the western part of the state there are 3 counties where this applies
yours
Sumter & Choctaw get Meridian, MS locals

The counties around you get Birmingham. See the pic below

Other than Nielsen changing it the only option really is to "move". What you can do is tell Dish/Direct that you "moved" (I use it in quotes because you really dont move) to a address that gets you Birmingham locals or Huntsville (which is north of you)

You leave your billing address the same as it is now and Dish would change the address and then you would get your state's locals. Thats what I did. My physical address with DIrectv is about 65 miles from my actual address. I get that DMA"s locals but the bill still comes to my address in Minneapolis.

Is it legal? sort of

Some people think otherwise but in your case moving may be the best option

TNGTony · May 9, 2010

To be completely Fair, it was CONGRESS that told the FCC to enforce the Nielsen borders in the latest law that allows satellite companies to deliver locals. Talk to your congressman and have him work on updating this part of the law. Since elections are coming up your incumbent and his/her opponent will be more likely to listen.

Also Nielsen doesn't draw DMA borders by using tarot cards, looking at how an ant walks across a map, or throwing darts at a map. The borders are based on where most of the people in the county do business, commute and otherwise have more ties. This is for the benefit of advertisers to be able to reach their target.

As with any artificial border, there are times when a portion of a county is really in the wrong DMA. This happens with a county just north of me that is in the Cincinnati market. Large towns with most of the population of the county are linked economically and socially with Cincinnati. However the norther part of the county is within sight of the Dayton, OH TV towers. But since that part of the county is mostly rural, they do not have the clout to change the border. At one time the county was split north and south but that ended decades ago.

There are counties that flip back and forth from one DMA to another all the time. I Ohio, Auglaize county is like a ping-pong ball floating between the Lima and Dayton markets. and the western panhandle of Nebraska is like a roulette wheel. No one knows where it will stop.

jspriddy · May 9, 2010

This is from Michael S. Perko, Chief, Office of Communications and Industry Information, Media Bureau, FCC (in a letter to me in late 2008):

"...the Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Reauthorization Act of 2004 ("SHVERA") modified the SHVIA and made reforms regarding the ability of satellite television subscribers to receive local and "distant" (i.e., a station that originates outside a consumers DMA) broadcast network programming. Among other things, the SHVERA generally authorizes satellite television carriers to retransmit to subscribers who receive local-into-local service the signal of any broadcast station located outside the local market in which the subscriber is located if the television signal is deemed "significantly viewed" in accordance with the standards and procedures developed by the Commission to determine whether a television signal is significantly viewed with respect to carriage on a cable television system. The "significantly viewed" criteria may permit one or more broadcast television stations licensed to one DMA to be carried by satellite and cable television systems in neighboring DMAs.

The Commission has published a list of television stations that are eligible for retransmission as "significantly viewed" and the communities in which stations are eligible for carriage on satellite and cable television systems. The list is available on the Commission's Internet website (Page Not Found). Satellite carriers, cable television operators, and broadcast television stations may file petitions with the Commission requesting that the list be expanded to include additional television signals and communities if they meet the "significantly viewed" criteria. At this time, three television stations licensed to Alabama communities qualify as "significantly viewed" in Lamar County. These stations are WBRC-TV and WVTM-TV (formerly WAPI-TV) which are licensed to Birmingham, and WDBB-TV which is licensed to Bessemer. Thus, satellite television carriers are permitted to retransmit the signals of these stations to consumers residing in Lamar County who subscribe to
local-into-local service. It is important to note, however, that satellite television carriers are not required to carry a television station that is deemed to be "significantly viewed." Rather, the satellite carrier and the station(s) may negotiate an agreement concerning the carriage of the signal(s)."

He also wrote in the same letter:

It is important to note that the Commission does not establish the boundaries of DMAs, nor does the Commission decide what
markets a satellite carrier serves with local broadcast signals. Rather, SHVIA permits satellite carriers to choose which markets they will serve with local television signals.

This sounds like it's Dish that's denying us these stations. Iceburg, I've fought this so long that I don't want to "move". I want to make it right.

Thanks, guys,

John

TNGTony · May 9, 2010

Dish is permanently barred from providing distant network channels ("significantly viewed" or otherwise) to anyone by court order as a punitive measure for an adjudication against them by several parties including Fox and CBS. This law suit was brought about when Dish was selling distant network channel to anyone with a pulse that knew the "correct" answer to two questions, and later when the law was changed, would sell distant locals to anyone who could work the system.

So no, Dish Network is not allowed to sell distant network channels to anyone at any time AND the current law does draw the boundaries the satellite carriers can sell network channels to conform to the Nielsen boundaries. So it isn't the FCC that set the boundaries. The satellite company can "freeze" the year of the boundaries so they do not have to replace channels to any customers who may be in counties that flip-flop year after year.

Sorry about your trouble, but it is definitely not Dish Network's doing. If it were up to them, you could get any locals from any market at any time. A few of us used to have as many as a dozen different local markets at once back in '99. I think JohnH once had over 20 different local markets.

TNGTony · May 9, 2010

Some light reading from the Satelliteguys archives

dishcomm · May 9, 2010

jspriddy said:
I searched for this and really didn't find an answer in the forums. Maybe I looked in the wrong place.

We live in Lamar county, Alabama. Dish and DirectTV offer local channels here, but they are from the Columbus-Tupelo (Mississippi) DMA. Obviously, as far as network programming, it doesn't matter. But local news is another issue. Most news, and some days, all news, does not pertain to us in any way. State government and politics, social and sporting events from Alabama are not covered. Weather news is another issue. Coverage of dangerous typically ends at the state line.

]Nearly everyone in this county who has satellite wants Alabama locals.

I've been through it with Dish and they blame FCC regulations and Nielsen. The FCC says they do not control it, it's up to the satellite provider to decide what local channels you get. The governor's office says that it's an issue between my service provider and me.

My question is, who is to blame here? The service providers, the FCC, some other government agency, or some strange bedfellows (politics make...)? Has anyone else fought this battle?
Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I'm new here so I may have overlooked a whole thread or even forum on this. My apologies

DMA's are determined by the AC Nielsen rating service and no one else.
There are some pretty illogical DMA's. There are also DMA's which reach out 100 miles to cover one county in a neighboring state. It is what it is.
IMO, we should be able to buy locals form whichever DMA we choose.
This idea of protecting ad dollars is garbage.
If I am forced to take channels form a certain city, that is fine as long as I can buy locals from anywhere I wish. It's my money. On- line, I can read just about any newspaper in the US and listen to just about any terrestrial radio broadcast I wish. TV is the only medium where I am forced to surrender consumer choice.

Claude Greiner · May 10, 2010

It is important to note that the Commission does not establish the boundaries of DMAs, nor does the Commission decide what
markets a satellite carrier serves with local broadcast signals. Rather, SHVIA permits satellite carriers to choose which markets they will serve with local television signals.

This means that the satellite companies can choose which local channels they want to provide to their customers, but its the goverment who says which customers are served by the local channels that DISH Network provides.

For example, DISH Network can choose to carry the Detroit Local Channels and the Toledo Ohio Local Channels. Its up to the goverment to decide which market a paticular address will receive local channels from.

If the goverment says your address gets locals from a city that DISH or Directv doesn't carry, then you don't get locals at all!

TigerpounceTN · May 10, 2010

Claude Greiner said:
This means that the satellite companies can choose which local channels they want to provide to their customers, but its the goverment who says which customers are served by the local channels that DISH Network provides.

For example, DISH Network can choose to carry the Detroit Local Channels and the Toledo Ohio Local Channels. Its up to the goverment to decide which market a paticular address will receive local channels from.

If the goverment says your address gets locals from a city that DISH or Directv doesn't carry, then you don't get locals at all!

Exactly. Dish isn't at fault with this issue. Moving is your best option if you want to remain a Dish Network customer and you can't receive Birmingham or Huntsville with an antenna. I know that my grandfather is about 90 miles from Huntsville across the Tennessee border and he has a pretty impressive antenna array up on a hill and he gets the Huntsville locals with perfect reception and can barely get a sniff of Nashville. You could always try your luck OTA.

jspriddy · May 10, 2010

Many thanks to ALL of you. I think I was reading what I wanted to read in the FCC letter-that's my fault. I understand it now.

]Tony, I'll go back and read these threads you so kindly provided.

If anyone else has any information, please post it.

Sounds to me like I've been lied to by politicians. I can't believe it. Those honorable, upstanding, honest....

]John[

wkomorow · May 10, 2010

To be completely fair - Dish had (they lost that right) and DirectTv has the right to provide the following significantly viewed stations in Lamar:

WBRC, 6, Birmingham, AL
WVTM-TV, 13, Birmingham, AL (formerly WAPI)
+WDBB, 17, Bessemer, AL

Except to complete certain DMAs for the major networks or in the case of politically sensitive DMAs, significantly viewed never got much attention from sat providers.

SamCdbs · May 11, 2010

Just to add, if you look at the DMA map of the entire country, you do see lots of seemingly illogical DMAs, and you do see lots and lots of people that get TV from an out-of-state market where market forces are going to dictate very limited coverage of their politics and such. Particularly in the Mountain West.

However, there is a method to this seeming madness. Nielsen assigns counties to DMAs based on the viewing habbits of OTA viewers on the ground in these areas.

Of course, there are tricks to this. On example in my area is Athens County, Ohio. Actually, you cannot receive any TV there w/o cable or dish (other than PBS). There are enough people there to move my DMA (Huntington-Charleston) up about 3 spots in the list of DMAs. Now naturally you would thinks people there would want Columbus locals, but the locals here grossly over-cover Athens County, in order to keep it in our DMA. The national ad buyers just look at DMA size and really don't care.

bamaweather · May 11, 2010

wkomorow said:
Except to complete certain DMAs for the major networks or in the case of politically sensitive DMAs, significantly viewed never got much attention from sat providers.

That's not entirely true. DirecTV offers quite a few significantly-viewed channels, but only in particular areas of the country.

For instance, in Cleburne County AL (which is in the Atlanta DMA), subscribers can receive Fox 6 and NBC 13 from Birmingham.

jspriddy · May 11, 2010

wkomorow said:
To be completely fair - Dish had (they lost that right) and DirectTv has the right to provide the following significantly viewed stations in Lamar:

WBRC, 6, Birmingham, AL
WVTM-TV, 13, Birmingham, AL (formerly WAPI)
+WDBB, 17, Bessemer, AL
...QUOTE]

That's the way I read a letter I had from the FCC, but they didn't mention Dish losing their rights. How did they lose them?

I have Dish, but DirectTV customers don't or can't get these stations. I know they're not required to provide them to us, but why wouldn't they? They, DirectTV (and Dish) claim to be for "viewer choice".

Bama, what did viewers in Cleburne county have to do to get these two stations?

Thanks to all who've responded,

John

digiblur · May 11, 2010

Even though it isn't morally correct..."moving" would be the better option.

jspriddy · May 12, 2010

digiblur said:
Even though it isn't morally correct..."moving" would be the better option.

You're right. I'm probably fighting a battle I can't win. My only problem is the number of people that are for some reason looking to me for a solution. It's one of those things sticks in your craw so badly that it makes you gag everytime you think about it.

This is what really gripes me, in an email from Dish:

"There are special interests involved with local stations in that allowing customers to choose their locals would result in certain markets receiving significantly lower viewer ratings;"

The bottom line is that the interests of local broadcasters are put above the interests of Dish's customers? To preserve their viewer ratings?

Anyway, thanks for your input, and I may have to move.

jp

bradleys · May 12, 2010

jspriddy said:
The bottom line is that the interests of local broadcasters are put above the interests of Dish's customers? To preserve their viewer ratings?

That is absolutely correct. The National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) is one of the most powerful lobby organizations in the country.

(And no, I'm not saying that the situation is good, just that it exists.)

harshness · May 12, 2010

bamaweather said:
For instance, in Cleburne County AL (which is in the Atlanta DMA), subscribers can receive Fox 6 and NBC 13 from Birmingham.

Do they get the Atlanta Fox and NBC stations as well?

harshness · May 12, 2010

Everything depends on Nielsen boundaries. The only choices that the providers get to make is which boundary they want to use. IIRC, the satellite providers are allowed to choose one of the five latest historical boundaries.

bamaweather · May 12, 2010

harshness said:
Do they get the Atlanta Fox and NBC stations as well?

Yes.

Discontent with out of state DMA

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