Downconvert HD instead of crappy SD

[Logansneo]

I fully appreciate that Dish, Direct, Comcast and other providers have a limited bandwidth with which to pool all of their content on but other than that and forcing people to pay for upgrading to HD packages, why don't providers cut down on all the duplication of signal and simply downconvert HD signals to 480p SD signals for non-HD customers?

This came up recently because while at my father's we were watching a baseball game in SD and it was absolutely atrocious.....I mean disgracefully so. Colors were washed out, detail was literally VHS quality, and it was all squeezed to fit 4:3 aspects, cutting out information on the picture. Sloppy! When I got home I made a point to check on the score and the HD feed via Dish was spectacular by comparison (VHS vs HD, you get the picture). I have a 722 with HD fed to my front room and SD via coaxial to my 27" Sony Trinitron in the bedroom. I verified that when on the SD feed it was unacceptable, but even on my 27" the downconverted HD feed remained spectacular. DVD quality, for lack of a better definition.

I say eliminate all duplicate SD broadcasting, saving a fairly substantial amount of space and begin filling those eliminated channels with more HD content, send that signal to customers and if they don't pay for HD their receiver automatically downconverts the HD feed! This would probably affect the overall package pricing but if it means getting a better picture on every level I think it would justify itself.

 

[garys]

There has been talk for years of switching all receivers to HD ones (at least for Dish Network) and having mpeg4 sd for the non-HD customers. The EA customers are mpeg4 already, so it is a matter of WA receivers getting switched. This has been discussed, but not in a long time since it is what Dish is already doing.

 

[SaltiDawg]

There has been talk for years of switching all receivers to HD ones (at least for Dish Network) and having mpeg4 sd for the non-HD customers. The EA customers are mpeg4 already, so it is a matter of WA receivers getting switched. This has been discussed, but not in a long time since it is what Dish is already doing.

I think the OP has a great idea. The current receivers have no way to selectively down-rez HD offerings to 480p for display on TV1. Also, they continue to send the SD as a separate stream from the HD for a given channel.

If Dish truly headed in the direction suggested, there is no need to wait until all receivers are receiving MPEG 4 only. Dish could build the Dish 2010 receiver - MPEG 4, a capability to down-rez HD offerings to 480p. When ready to implement the new strategy it would be good to go and it also would function just fine in the present.

In fact Dish could selectively implement the new scheme for customers with the new receivers during the transition. With my new receiver I could receive only the HD channels and SD only channels - those not available in HD. My neighbor next door with his 722k receiver would receive the same thing plus the SD version of the HD channels.

 

[navychop]

We all agree it's a great idea. But especially for cablecos, expensive to replace millions upon millions of boxes with more expensive HD ones. Long payback time.

Plus, who knows? Maybe the content providers would have some complaint about this.

 

[cditty]

I would imagine that some networks run different commercials on the sd vs hd feeds as well.

 

[Jhon69]

This is one of the main reasons I have not converted over to HD yet.It spoils the viewer,it costs more,plus all the channels are not HD yet.Then there's the little fact that there are still more SD subscribers than HD subscribers.

My PhilipsMagnavox 50" CRT RPTV has been calibrated and I receive a very good picture on it(with S-Video).Most of the pictures I see on my TV are "downrezzled HD" with my 625.With a "downrezzled HD picture" the colors are deeper and the definition a little clearer,but there are still some channels that are not.But I can tell when a channel goes HD because my signal gets better.This is using the MPEG2 Western Arc.544x480(Thanks Krell for measuring it).

There are some HDTV's that display SD very well, for those you would have to check the TV reviews online.Will I miss my 625 when Dish converts the WA?.Most definitely because the 625 has a 2 hour pause and 2-120 minute live buffers,which for what I use it for is Dish network's best DVR for me.

 

[DishSubLA]

The reason is all economic, as navychop cited. To move to all MPEG4 now would be too costly for Charles. That is why he is pushing upgrades so that down the line when he does implement an all MPEG4 system for all subscribers, it will cost him less.

However, it is not MPEG4 that Dish is shooting for, but, rather, an all 8PSK service for all subscribers. 8PSK, currently used for all SD services on the WA, would allow him more efficiency with the bandwidth and be a much less expensive change to implement, meaning fewer and less expensive boxes to give customers as replacement. Scott had said that Dish was aiming for 2011 for the 8PSK changeout? Well, Dish has only officially mentioned 8PSK for the short-term, while MPEG4 is further down for the long-term. DP's 311, 322, 522, 625, and all ViP's are capable of demodulating 8PSK. Dish would have to replace all older boxes once they feel they have squeezed everybody they could to upgrade at the customers expense, of course.

 

[Barry Erick]

I would imagine that some networks run different commercials on the sd vs hd feeds as well.

They used to. I know CBS and NBC only provide HD feeds to the stations and equipment at the stations down convert to SD. Now for ABC, FOX and all the cable/satellite broadcasters, that may be true. There was a time that CBS and NBC both ran different commercials on their SD/HD feeds. That was back when they first started HD and there was the tried and true SD system in place and just one HD receiver for those feeds. Now they both have HD only systems with SD as a by-the-way outputs.

 

[cditty]

They used to. I know CBS and NBC only provide HD feeds to the stations and equipment at the stations down convert to SD. Now for ABC, FOX and all the cable/satellite broadcasters, that may be true. There was a time that CBS and NBC both ran different commercials on their SD/HD feeds. That was back when they first started HD and there was the tried and true SD system in place and just one HD receiver for those feeds. Now they both have HD only systems with SD as a by-the-way outputs.

I was thinking channels like Food, DIY, etc... I am curious now, so i will record the same program from a couple of them tonight and see what I get.

 

[navychop]

This is one of the main reasons I have not converted over to HD yet.It spoils the viewer,it costs more,plus all the channels are not HD yet.Then there's the little fact that there are still more SD subscribers than HD subscribers.

WOW! IMHO, you've waited too long. The very fact that you are on this site shows that you are much more interested and involved in PQ & AQ than the majority. And I find that most programming, at least that I'm interested in, is in HD.


My PhilipsMagnavox 50" CRT RPTV has been calibrated and I receive a very good picture on it(with S-Video).Most of the pictures I see on my TV are "downrezzled HD" with my 625.With a "downrezzled HD picture" the colors are deeper and the definition a little clearer,but there are still some channels that are not.But I can tell when a channel goes HD because my signal gets better.This is using the MPEG2 Western Arc.544x480(Thanks Krell for measuring it).

Sorry. The 625 is not capable of handling HD. You're just getting SD, not downrezzed HD.


There are some HDTV's that display SD very well, for those you would have to check the TV reviews online.Will I miss my 625 when Dish converts the WA?.Most definitely because the 625 has a 2 hour pause and 2-120 minute live buffers,which for what I use it for is Dish network's best DVR for me.

See comments above. And yes, the 625 does have some niceties that have earned it a following.

 

[Jhon69]

Sorry. The 625 is not capable of handling HD. You're just getting SD, not downrezzed HD.


Sorry,I will try to word it better, when a programmer's channel goes HD,the signal given to the provider for SD is a better SD signal than it was before.Comparing both SD signals on my MPEG2 SD DVR one will look like the colors are washed out,where the other one the colors are deeper and definition is a little clearer.Hope this clears up any confusion as I am only watching an SD signal on my MPEG2 SD DVR,Dish's 625.

 

[SaltiDawg]

...
My PhilipsMagnavox 50" CRT RPTV has been calibrated and I receive a very good picture on it(with S-Video). ...

My Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD 60" Plasma has been calibrated and I receive an awesome picture on it via HDMI or OTA.

I am quite sure that you would be disappointed in your PQ if a side-by-side comparison were performed.

YMMV

PS I remember in the 1960s when many people did not need to buy one of those expensive color TVs.

 

[navychop]

Yeah. Took forever to get my dad to spring for one. Needless to say, we were NOT first on our block.....

 

[SaltiDawg]

Yeah. Took forever to get my dad to spring for one. Needless to say, we were NOT first on our block.....

I built our first color set in 1967. (Heathkit GR-295)

 

[navychop]

Ah, don't you miss Heathkit? I built and modded a couple of H-89s.

 

[the mack]

I thought I was old......you guys are setting the ''way back'' machine....way back.....lol

 

[navychop]

Trissel, trassel, tressel, trome.
Time for this one to come home......

 

[SaltiDawg]

Ah, don't you miss Heathkit? I built and modded a couple of H-89s.

I was serving aboard a Nuclear Fast Attack up in New London when I built my Heathkit. My Commanding Officer liked it so much that he bought himself a kit also.

There were four circuit boards that needed to be built. He built them at sea. (The Captain having his own desk an his own stateroom. He'd have all the components in little cups spread out over his desk.)

For a few weeks there we could not put any kind of an angle on the boat for fear of spilling the Captains "stuff" all over his stateroom. Ah, the Cold War took different turns sometimes.

 

[navychop]

:haha

 

[TheKrell]

Ah, don't you miss Heathkit? I built and modded a couple of H-89s.

What is this? Neither of you guys ever built a Healthkit amp?