DVR that's compatable with regular cable TV?

[that_girl]

Hi everyone-

I'm new here and need some advice and direction. I'll start out by saying that I don't know much about this topic so bear with me (and please don't use 'tech speak' in your reply).

I'd like to get a DVR for my mom who regularly tapes her favorite shows. She has a non-HD tv set and subscribes to cable tv (comcast I think). I know the tv doesn't require a box of any sort to receive the signal and all the tvs in the house can get cable channels. I don't know what sort of service this is or if that makes any difference for my question.

Are there DVRs available that will work with this kind of setup? I assume you would hook up the DVR to the tv where you intend to watch the shows and would only be able to view DVR recordings on that tv, correct? Would this DVR be able to pause live TV?

I have a DVR at my house but I also have a dish so I don't know how this would work with my mom's tv. I know she'd love the convenience of a DVR instead of VHS tapes (really, who still uses these?!) Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you! :

 

[bicker]

There are two critical questions: First, what town in your mother located in. This is necessary to try to determine when Project Calvary will be implemented. Second, we do need to know which specific networks your mother will be wanting to record. Knowing her service level will help, but the answer to your question will be radically different if all she wants to do is record ABC, NBC and CBS, versus also wanting to record (for example) TLC.

I can answer for my own situation, which may or may not be parallel to your mother's situation: In our area, Project Calvary was just implemented last month. I have Comcast's Digital Economy service, and for example, one show I like to record is White Collar, on USA Network.

What I get out of the wall, now, is just the over-the-air broadcast channels. That's a lot different from what I was getting four months ago, before the enhancement to our network, and before I dropped down a level of service. That just demonstrates how what your mother might have now could change very soon, and therefore why it is important that, unless you're prepared to throw whatever you buy now away in a few months, you really want to aim to buy something that will continue to work for a long time.

So for me to record White Collar, on USA Network, I now need a digital box or CableCARD (and again, this is a relatively new change). That severely limits the DVRs available for sale to the general public that can serve my needs. Essentially there are two: The TiVo HD DVR and the Moxi HD DVR. (There are also computer card-based solutions, but I'm pretty sure you're not interested in those.) The TiVo HD DVR can be had for about $700, while the Moxi HD DVR just had a price reduction and is now available for $500.

Again, if your mother likes to record different television programs from me, then her needs perhaps could be satisifed by another DVR. I have an old TiVo Series 1, as a matter of fact, that would satisfy many VCR users, if all they cared to record were programs off ABC, NBC and CBS. (It's for sale, as a matter of fact.)

So help us understand your mother's needs a bit better, and we'll be able to provide a more specific and detailed reply.

 

[CowboyDren]

If you're in a small service company neighborhood, and analog cable isn't going away any time soon, there's the TiVo Series-2 Dual-Tuner (S2DT), which can be had for $150 ($80 refurb) plus TiVo subscription. If you're in a Comcast or Time Warner neighborhood, and CableCard is an option, there's the TiVo HD ($300 new, $200 refurb, +service). The big dog from TiVo is the TiVo HD XL, which your mom probably isn't interested in, either, since it's mostly just an HD with a bigger hard drive.

The S2DT can do analog cable, but it's difficult to do anything else. The HD can do over-the-air, HD or SD, which the S2DT cannot. TiVo service starts at $13 per month over and above your cable subscription, or $99 per year, or $399 for the lifetime of the box (under $350 on eBaY). If you have to use CableCard, there is usually an additional monthly fee from the cable company, usually $3-7 per month. All units require a phone line, if not a broadband internet connection. The TiVo HD and Moxi get really exciting when they're attached to broadband; Netflix Watch Instantly, Rhapsody streaming music, YouTube videos, and so forth.

TiVos do multi-room viewing (MRV) within a local area network, transferring shows between TiVos, TiVo Desktop, or a number of other PC-based solutions. There is no TiVo that can be extended like a Dish Network DVR or like Moxi can (with Moxi Mate) yet.

For proof of concept, I'd get a refurb S2DT ($80 at tivo.com), buy a 1-year subscription for it ($99), and yell and scream at Comcast to insist that they bring an M-Card unit to the site. This keeps your initial costs low, but commits you to giving the service an honest try.

 

[bicker]

Just to be clear: With TiVo's -- the TiVo S2DT cannot handle CableCARD (S-Card or M-Card). The TiVo S3 and TiVo HD can.

 

[CowboyDren]

Sorry. Thanks bicker.

 

[that_girl]

Thanks for the quick replies! I'm not sure on the info you're asking about and I'm trying to get my dad to find out for me - ideally the DVR would be a Christmas present for my mom.

I did a bit of googling on Project Cavalry - I think they have Comcast and my dad says they don't have any boxes installed on their TVs, so either it hasn't reached them yet or its not going to. They live in central Illinois, about 2 hrs SW of Chicago.

I think that my mom mostly records stuff off the regular channels (NBC, ABC, CBS) but I would hate to buy something that could only record on those channels and then be stuck if she wants to record a different station.

I know my mom won't go for the TiVO subscription - trust me, I've tried on that one. Also, I'm not opposed to making some computer-based DVR. I feel more comfortable dealing with computer tech stuff rather than TV stuff and I figure I've got a ton of computer parts lying around that maybe I could make something? But I'm getting ahead of myself here. I'd like whatever I get to be inexpensive and versatile.

Looking forward to your suggestions! :

 

[bicker]

I did a bit of googling on Project Cavalry - I think they have Comcast and my dad says they don't have any boxes installed on their TVs, so either it hasn't reached them yet or its not going to.

I would assume that it will soon reach them (within what you'd consider the life of a DVR you might buy). There isn't much sense in leaving a cable system stick forever in the 1970s.

They live in central Illinois, about 2 hrs SW of Chicago.

Sorry, but I don't know the area well enough, and I couldn't find any info from my typical resources to give you a timeline. What I was able to learn was that in Peoria, at least, they only digital channels in-the-clear now are the over-the-air broadcast channels... you need a digital cable box or CableCARD installed in your CableCARD cable box/DVR to tune in any others.

I think that my mom mostly records stuff off the regular channels (NBC, ABC, CBS) but I would hate to buy something that could only record on those channels and then be stuck if she wants to record a different station.

Then your choices are limited, as I mentioned above. The TiVo HD DVR and the Moxi HD DVR. (There are also computer card-based solutions, but I'm pretty sure you're not interested in those.) The TiVo HD DVR can be had for about $700, while the Moxi HD DVR just had a price reduction and is now available for $500.

I know my mom won't go for the TiVO subscription - trust me, I've tried on that one.

TiVo doesn't require a monthly subscription fee, if you pay for lifetime service on it. For $700, you can have a TiVo, and never have to pay them another dime.

Also, I'm not opposed to making some computer-based DVR.

The reviews are that these are great options for the technically inclined, but people who just want to come home and watch television want a device made for that. I'll bet you that you mother won't want to deal with a computer as her DVR.

And it isn't really less expensive. The benefit of a computer-based solution is that you get to record up to six things at the same time. Is that something you mother needs?

Here's some info on this option:

CableCARD PC Tuner Update

 

[CowboyDren]

TiVo doesn't require a monthly subscription fee, if you pay for lifetime service on it. For $700, you can have a TiVo, and never have to pay them another dime.

I'm not a fan of lifetime; I prefer annual until things settle down again. $300 for the first year and $99 a year after that is a bit easier to swallow than $550 up front.

You can get a refurb TiVo HD for $200 from tivo.com and a lifetime subscription card for about $350 on eBaY; that's where I got the $550 figure.

And it isn't really less expensive. The benefit of a computer-based solution is that you get to record up to six things at the same time. Is that something you mother needs?

I think the cap is four tuners for a home-brew solution that's not officially licensed and supported by Microsoft Home. At least, that's the reason that Ceton is giving for making the quad-tuner card first. Doesn't matter much; we're talking about Mom.

Side note, bicker: Knowing that the S2DT doesn't do QAM or cablecard, will the HD do ClearQAM without a card or NTSC cable at all?

 

[bicker]

I'm not a fan of lifetime; I prefer annual until things settle down again.

that_girl said that annual subscription is unacceptable for her.

You can get a refurb TiVo HD for $200 from tivo.com and a lifetime subscription card for about $350 on eBaY; that's where I got the $550 figure.

Creative, but it involves some decisions that more conservative purchasers might not want to engage in.

BTW, I can get one for $450... $150 for a new TiVo HD from TiVo, as a current TiVo subscriber with a box in service for more than three years, plus $299 for lifetime service instead of $399.

Side note, bicker: Knowing that the S2DT doesn't do QAM or cablecard, will the HD do ClearQAM without a card or NTSC cable at all?

It'll let you tune in clear QAM channels manually, but it won't map them into the program guide, so essentially it'll be a big PITA to use the TiVo that way. Get CableCARD. That's how both the TiVo HD and Moxi HD DVRs are made to work.

 

[CowboyDren]

that_girl said that annual subscription is unacceptable for her.

Well, that's something that has to be reconciled; everybody pays, it's just a matter of when and how much. Moxi buyers don't get to choose; they pay for it all, right now. TiVo buyers get some choice; they can pay for it all right now, or they can pay for it in big chunks, or they can pay monthly ad infinitum. Even WMC users pay for "free" software by turning themselves into their own tech support department. Personally, I prefer the idea of an appliance with a warranty, which is probably ruling out WMC/Sage/BeyondTV for me.

Creative, but it involves some decisions that more conservative purchasers might not want to engage in.

Actually, I'd much rather have a refurb appliance with a factory warranty than one I bought at the store. In a refurb, either it's been proven to be a functioning unit, or it has already failed and been repaired. You get no such security with new hardware, and if it's going to fail, it's going to fail on you. Same reason I won't buy a new car; let some other fool take care of the recalls and fix the things that the line workers screwed up, and let him take the depreciation hit, too. I'm mostly with you about buying a subscription card on eBaY, except that it's a plastic card, with a serial number on it, just like any other gift card. As long as you buy that card with a secured funding method, you should be okay...I think...

 

[bicker]

Even WMC users pay for "free" software by turning themselves into their own tech support department.

That is such an important point.

it involves some decisions that more conservative purchasers might not want to engage in

Actually, I'd much rather have a refurb appliance with a factory warranty than one I bought at the store.

Everyone has different preferences in this regard.

In a refurb, either it's been proven to be a functioning unit, or it has already failed and been repaired.

The collective experience of TiVo, Moxi and DTVPal DVR owners shows that refurbs are not better. Typically, the refurbs are a reflection of infant mortality of internal components (most often, with DVRs, the hard drive). The refurbishment involves replacing the hard drive, with another instance of the same, with the same infant mortality profile. So essentially, you're getting not advantage from the refurb, and you suffer the cosmetic ill-effects, such as minor marring of the case -- and (and don't underestimate how much other people value this) you lose the special feeling of driving off the lot with something "new". Remember: People aren't robots. They have emotions, so not everything regarding the way they value things will necessarily match up with rational logic.

 

[CowboyDren]

Remember: People aren't robots. They have emotions, so not everything regarding the way they value things will necessarily match up with rational logic.

Granted! Now to change it up on you, from the robot perspective:

Typically, the refurbs are a reflection of infant mortality of internal components (most often, with DVRs, the hard drive). The refurbishment involves replacing the hard drive, with another instance of the same, with the same infant mortality profile.

So why spend an extra $50-100 for a new unit, if you're only given the same mortality rate? I'll take the same risk for less money, thanks. Your other point is perfect; there's something about being the first person to power something up, and that can't be replaced. I like to think that I'm more rational now, and a little less attached to tools/electronics/cars than I once was.

Even WMC users pay for "free" software by turning themselves into their own tech support department.

That is such an important point.

I'm a certified Linux administrator. I know a thing or two about the price of getting things for free.

 

[bicker]

So why spend an extra $50-100 for a new unit, if you're only given the same mortality rate?

I mentioned that later in my message:

... you're getting not advantage from the refurb, and you suffer the cosmetic ill-effects, such as minor marring of the case -- and (and don't underestimate how much other people value this) you lose the special feeling of driving off the lot with something "new".

Again, my advisory to you at the time was to not underestimate how much other people value this. I meant it.

I'm a certified Linux administrator. I know a thing or two about the price of getting things for free.

I can imagine!