Electrical Interference - Break up on channels when my Water or Sump pump kick on.

[iBoston]

When ever the sump pump or water pump kick on, which are high power pumps, 2 to 3 thousand watts, i get break up on certain satellite services. I'm not sure where to begin on how to trouble shoot or figure out how to resolve it. Its currently quite annoying because the sump pump is in full gear because of the massive snow melt that has been occurring the last couple weeks. So, that kicks on every minute or so. It doesn't happen on all services, and i believe its restricted to Cband services not KU, but then again, i cannot say thats because of the Frequency differences, it might just have to do with the multi switches it runs through.. Only the Cband operates under the Multiswitches in the house, the KU operates under multi switches outside.

I have diseqc 1.0 , 1.1, multi switches galore. I do believe one of the water pumps is on the same circuit as one of the multi switches. I do have a Voltage regulator on the multi switches. Its a higher end surge protector that levels the voltage whether high or low. I have grounded coax cables, although, I might have missed one or two along the years, but before all that, i thought i would jot you folks a message to see if anyone can narrow down the areas i should be hunting this issue down.

Thanks for anyone's insight.

 

[Brct203]

for a test, I'd suggest eliminating the switches, so that you have only the strict minimum equipment required to receive one of the channels where you are seeing the problem. If th eproblem persists, looks elsewhere. Maybe RF interference affecting C-band? Maybe electromagnetic interferences in the power line. If you have a handheld meter (powered on batteries), are you also seeing interferences there? What about if it's connected directly to the LNB(F) without any powered switches

Quite a big projecton a system like yours, but I think proceeding by elimination might help pinpoint the problem

Also, as you have several C-Band LNBs, are you seeing the problem of all of them?

 

[Tower Guy]

My guess would be arcing in the start switches that is creating energy at 4 GHz that is reaching the C band feed horn. I say this because I’ve seen a small engine magneto cause a loss of all C band signals until the engine was turned off.

Can you put the wires to the pump switches in conduit?

 

[iBoston]

My guess would be arcing in the start switches that is creating energy at 4 GHz that is reaching the C band feed horn. I say this because I’ve seen a small engine magneto cause a loss of all C band signals until the engine was turned off.

Can you put the wires to the pump switches in conduit?

What do you mean by start switches?

The Romex power cables that supply the sump pumps are NOT anywhere near the lines of RG6, other than it might be on the same circuit breaker that supplies the power to the multi switch. Ill have to verify that by flipping circuit breakers.

 

[Comptech]

My LED bulbs caused me headaches, luck I had room for another couple of breaker in my panel that supply the power, all issues are gone now.

 

[Larry1]

A long power extension cord may be useful to try different outlets to see if the problem is coming through the power line.

 

[rgk]

Are these 220vac motors with basic on\off motor contactors or do they have DC or variable frequency motor controllers? AC motors with contactors usually only have potential to cause electrical noise briefly at start up. DC motor controllers and variable frequency drives can cause a lot of electrical noise. There are solutions available to filter noise caused by DC drives and variable frequency drives. The best tool for checking for noise is an oscilloscope.

 

[iBoston]

I have to fix my chewed up wires that i discovered a couple days ago first. I'm thinking ill do that tomorrow. Supposed to be near 60 degrees and sunny. Then i will see if i can figure out this interference. If there are additional ideas keep them coming. Thanks for the posts, as ill try a few ideas that have been posted here.

 

[iBoston]

Okay, well, I finally tracked it down. Via troubleshooting, I have discovered the culprit was coming from my 8x5 multi switch...

The multi switch has a Horizontal / Vertical LNBF input. I found that if i unscrewed the Vertical, the Horizontal Signal quality GREATLY improved. If i re-attached the vertical, the horizontal became EXTREMELY sensitive to Interference, which made the signal go crazy such as when the water pump kicked on.

I swapped the multi switch with another brand that i have sitting around as a spare. The signal quality jumped up over 2db from the other switch and become stable regardless of H/V signals and no further impact when the water pump kicked on. Right now, i have the multiswitch messy patched into place. If in a month its still going as expected, ill physically remove and swap the placement of the new multiswitch and label my old one as problematic.

I originally thought i had two issues going on. I thought i was getting 5g interference, as I am getting some interference on other Cband dishes and that the electrical interference from the pumps was the straw that broke the Camels back so to speak. I had moved the multi switch to another circuit. I changed the grounding on it. But, in the end, i just needed to swap it with another unit...

This is a big relief for me. I've been having a lot of weird issues with this dish. LNBF's going bad.. Maybe the multiswitch was damaging the LNBFs, or maybe the other way around.. Either way, its all new hardware now. Let's hope this closes the book...

 

[arlo]

yaaaaa. Try a Class-X and/or Class-Y safety capacitor at the motor switch like shown here.
In my world. A dead giveaway one has failed or is non-present in a turntable or audio component (receiver) with a mechanical power switch is a loud *POP* when switched on/off.
Sometimes they short too (Rifa brand) and the danged thing sticks powered on.
Surge suppressors, power strips commonly have them in the circuit to snub surges.
But if your pump is switching on and you get a large voltage drop in the circuit. You need to fix that first.
Ex: Dump the 14g Romex and run 10g. to the breaker.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/safety-capacitor-class-x-and-class-y-capacitors/

 

[c-spand]

Are your dishes grounded?

 

[iBoston]

Are your dishes grounded?

The dish antennas? or are you referring to the coax? I do have the moveable Cband dish grounded... My fixed dishes are not grounded beyond the fact they are welded onto a metal storage container that is sitting on the ground. I would think that would count as grounded.. The coax lines all run through a ground terminal block.

 

[c-spand]

The dish antennas? or are you referring to the coax? I do have the moveable Cband dish grounded... My fixed dishes are not grounded beyond the fact they are welded onto a metal storage container that is sitting on the ground. I would think that would count as grounded.. The coax lines all run through a ground terminal block.

When you have that much area chained together it can pull in allot of static on surface of dish especially on low humidity days. Once i grounded my dishes it eliminated power surges that blipped signal when light switches were turned on and off.

 

[c-spand]

When you have that much area chained together it can pull in allot of static on surface of dish especially on low humidity days. Once i grounded my dishes it eliminated power surges that blipped signal when light switches were turned on and off.

So the actual dish I grounded.

 

[c-spand]

So the actual dish I grounded.

You may have to ground the container as it may act as interference.

 

[one_db_compression]

You may have to ground the container as it may act as interference.

I have worked with a lot of designs incorporating NFPA, API, and IEEE best practices for lightning protection on tall structures like communication towers. When you're building towers, it's not if your structure is going to get hit, it's how many times. Besides safety, you're trying to give equipment the best chance of surviving by also incorporating rack isolation, not putting your obstruction lighting on -48VDC, etc.

From a general user standpoint, everything mentioned above is bonded to the container at this point, but it is not effectively "grounded". If you want a solid ground for commercial or industrial use, you need to start driving rods into the ground and connecting them together with 2/0 until you reach 5 ohms. This is impractical for home users from a space and cost standpoint, so for hobbyists my suggestion is to get a copper or copper-clad steel rod into the ground at least 3 feet down with a #8 or larger ground wire and some connectors that look similar to parts from the Burndy catalog.

It is also possible that "ground" on a number of your devices isn't actually zero volts. Your ground is floating at some voltage above zero. By bringing them to a common point, you might be inadvertently increasing "ground" for adjacent devices and causing a potential difference between devices. You should consider selectively removing ground from some devices to see if the problem goes away. I have a client with a large number of VSAT installations. They needed to remove the grounding block and do uninterrupted cable runs to the LNB and BUC, against the manufacturer's installation best practice, because they were randomly having LNB and BUC failures. Once the grounding blocks were removed, the failures stopped. Our best attempt at explanation was that the ground at the dish and mast was at a different level than the shelter and racks and this caused a ground potential difference and resulted in a circulating current due to the DC voltage on the coax to power the electronics on the dish.

Your mileage may vary. Solving grounding issues is a bit engineering and a bit black art.

 

[iBoston]

Thanks all, I think i will actually do that.. I am getting some very bizarre interference issues, but because they appear to happen around the same time period, i was making the assumption it was something terrestrial. Regardless, i will get a copper rod pounded into the ground and attach it to the container.

Questions...

Is it bad grounding the coax into a grounded terminal block that grounded into the utility ground? That is currently what i have? For interference related issues, is there any benefit to grounding into the grid, or would that only really give you surge protection? Is there a way i can use a electric multi meter to see that voltage in any measurable way? Would i stick one end on the container, and one in the ground??

 

[one_db_compression]

Thanks all, I think i will actually do that.. I am getting some very bizarre interference issues, but because they appear to happen around the same time period, i was making the assumption it was something terrestrial. Regardless, i will get a copper rod pounded into the ground and attach it to the container.

Questions...

Is it bad grounding the coax into a grounded terminal block that grounded into the utility ground? That is currently what i have? For interference related issues, is there any benefit to grounding into the grid, or would that only really give you surge protection? Is there a way i can use a electric multi meter to see that voltage in any measurable way? Would i stick one end on the container, and one in the ground??

If it is truly interference, you need better shielding... which can be related to poor grounding, depending on how it is deployed.

Earth ground testing is more involved than just using some basic probes on a multimeter. I don't think you need to worry about that. If you had a 3-phase service that was heavily imbalanced between the phases, it is quite possible you could be seeing something on the neutral.

Also, you're not grounding into the grid, per se, since the utility almost certainly isn't providing you with a ground. It's just a local ground that happens to be tied to something that looks like it comes from a utility - a panel, water pipe, etc. Nothing wrong with using that point.

 

[c-spand]

Thanks all, I think i will actually do that.. I am getting some very bizarre interference issues, but because they appear to happen around the same time period, i was making the assumption it was something terrestrial. Regardless, i will get a copper rod pounded into the ground and attach it to the container.

Questions...

Is it bad grounding the coax into a grounded terminal block that grounded into the utility ground? That is currently what i have? For interference related issues, is there any benefit to grounding into the grid, or would that only really give you surge protection? Is there a way i can use a electric multi meter to see that voltage in any measurable way? Would i stick one end on the container, and one in the ground??

I just grounded my dishes to water pipe with ground clamp. And green coded wire. I forget which gauge it is. You can just use smaller gauge too.

 

[iBoston]

I just grounded my dishes to water pipe with ground clamp. And green coded wire. I forget which gauge it is. You can just use smaller gauge too.

Don't have that option.. We are not on utility water, we have our own well and well pump. The water line is plastic, so that's a no go. I have some copper pipe, ill use that and drive it into the ground.