HDMI and tech chat

[dude2]

The dish guys are talking about the hdmi problem with the 622 is because the connection is too weak and is breaking in the fitting hole.
Come-on, are the guys that are having that problem that rough with the cable that you break it.
I could see someone trying to force it in backwords but it would give so much resistance that any common person would not try to force it.
I find it hard to accept this fact.
The tech said that is the ONLY reason that hdmi is failing it due to broken connections. Also they did mention one tv mfg that they have not figured out the problem but I have never heard of that model or can remember it.
What will happen when hdmi fitting 1.3 comes out and is tiny enough to fit into a camcorder? Will it be stronger?

 

[bhelms]

dude2 - If you open the 622 and watch the socket and PCB as you gently move the HDMI plug, you can see motion at the back of the socket. That is certainly not excessive force, about what you might expect as the plug is inserted or the unit is moved around a bit. The connections from the socket to the PCB board are very small, close-pitch, and probably fragile. It wouldn't take much force to break one or more of those connections over time.

As I said in the Chat thread and elsewhere, I believe this is one very practical/explainable root cause of the "no HDMI output" problem. And I also contend there are others...

 

[mdonnelly]

...
What will happen when hdmi fitting 1.3 comes out and is tiny enough to fit into a camcorder? Will it be stronger?

Assuming that it's similar to a 4-wire IEEE-1394 connection like my camcorder uses, YES. That connector and cable is so light, the strain on the SMT connector is negligible.

 

[ryanvan]

It wouldn't take much force to break one or more of those connections over time./QUOTE]

I don't know how many times you would be taking out your HDMI cords but sees like you would just plug it in once and leave it.

 

[webbydude]

I don't own a 622, but from what I've seen on troublecalls, I'm still going to go with "software issues" as to what's plagueing the HDMI port.

 

[ryanvan]

how do we get these updates? are they automatic every night?

 

[JeremyL]

Here's my two cents. About two weeks after hooking up my second 622 I turned it on and no HDMI output. I checked the cables and did a hard re-boot and it started working again. I originally thought it had to be a hardware issue, but that sounds like software to me - or just something got hung up in the 622 itself and needed cleared out. The day before, while watching NASCAR on NBC, the screen went dark for awhile - not totally gone, but like someone put one of those dark anti-glare screens over it.

 

[bhelms]

...I don't know how many times you would be taking out your HDMI cords but sees like you would just plug it in once and leave it.

Agreed, but just sliding the equipment back into place does the same thing, and if the HDMI cable is dangling behind your equipment with its full weight on the plug, that's another possible variable force. It can all add up...

I don't own a 622, but from what I've seen on troublecalls, I'm still going to go with "software issues" as to what's plagueing the HDMI port.

There are multiple "root causes" at work here. E* identified/confirmed two of them in the Tech Chat last evening, and those are completely independent...

Here's my two cents. About two weeks after hooking up my second 622 I turned it on and no HDMI output. I checked the cables and did a hard re-boot and it started working again. I originally thought it had to be a hardware issue, but that sounds like software to me - or just something got hung up in the 622 itself and needed cleared out...

Soft/hard reboots are certainly one possible quick fix for certain HDMI problems (and something E* has you try on a tech call complaint), just like for any other computer that's acting-up or has become unstable. In other threads folks have reported that wiggling the HDMI plug also "fixes" the problem. That could be a signal interruption on one or more lines doing something to the internal program, or it could be making/breaking a bad connection at the HDMI socket, as E* has confirmed as a failure mechanism...

 

[Hall]

I mentioned this in another thread here, but think of those people who fall for the "monster" cable myth and have a big-a** cable. Their 622 is a couple of feet off the ground on a shelf, so that cable is hanging down to the floor. Think of the pressure on that tiny connector now....

 

[Hall]

how do we get these updates? are they automatic every night?

There is no schedule for software updates. They are typically sent overnight though. When a new one is released, people here will announce it. If it's a limited release, you may or may not get it. When it's a full release, you'll get it in a matter of days or so. Just make sure you push the power button on the remote -- for both tuners -- to turn the 622 "off" (standby mode) overnight.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

The problem reports in the HDMI threads in the HD forum seemed to indicate multiple problems. Some of them did seem like software issues, others sounded very much like hardware problems. For example, multiple people reported that if they gently moved the connector and/or cable, the image would come back. Then after some more time passed, they would lose it entirely.

In the poll we conducted in that forum, 40% (80 out of 200 responses) of all 211/411/622 users that were using their HDMI connections to their TV, had the connection fail over time. Now that's a high failure rate.

 

[ryanvan]

What is D* going to do about it? Could they do a recall?

 

[bhelms]

D* won't do anything. E* could do a recall, but that's highly unlikely. I suspect there will continue to be the same denial phase for each complaining customer until the techs have "confirmed" (strongly suspect, as best as possible in a phone call) a broken connector then they will probably authorize the swap-out. They would be wise to find a workaround to help prevent it in the replacement units. Using the component connection is usually a viable option, but that shouldn't be the ONLY option; since we're paying for the digital connection we should be able to use it! E* might consider adopting some of the "supported" HDMI sockets/cables like those to which foxbat provided links...

I'd be really curious as to the overall F/R for this specific HDMI problem (well, all of them for that matter!). Tom B. reports 40% from the respondents in this forum. Are the results for that sample representative of the whole population? I'll bet a sizeable number of the population are ignorant to the specifics of the problem and/or the overall HDMI situation unlike the "power users" comprising the SatGuys members who have stayed on top of this issue over the past several months. But I do consider it significant that E* reported the problem exactly as we have seen it develop...!

 

[navychop]

Plus, HDCP only works on digital connections, not component.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I tried to steer that poll away from power users, asking everyone who was using their HDMI connector to tell me if it was still working or had it stopped working. And they could report on multiple boxes. Just because someone frequents SatGuys and thus is a "power user" I don't see why that would change the incident rate of the failures.

Given that I got 200 responses, I felt that the results might be a fair indicator of the magnitude of the overall problem. If not exactly 40%, then a very good chance that it would fall within a range of 30%-50% of all MPEG4 boxes.

Of course many people aren't using the HDMI connection. However if they try, then a goodly percentage are likely to experience problems with it.

 

[bhelms]

A 622 user being a member of SatGuys certainly wouldn't change the incidence rate of the HDMI failures (unless they were reading about the issue and applied extra caution per our warnings) but it could certainly make them more aware of the problem and/or more likely to correctly identify it and/or be willing to "talk" about it. I'm guessing the problem is underreported in the population as a whole. That said, what would the F/R need to be before E* would mention it in the program? I'm curious as to their complete motive. Of course they're trying to spread the blame to the HDMI developers for the "under engineered" connector, but are they also laying groundwork for some kind of mitigation? Their costs associated with this problem have to be huge and I'd think they'd be trying to do some meaningful damage control on several fronts. I don't mean to seem bitter about this - I think they fairly handled my problem. But that was early in the game. Now that they know/have admitted there's a real (significant?) problem out there, what are they going to do about it...?

 

[ralfyguy]

Now that they know/have admitted there's a real (significant?) problem out there, what are they going to do about it...?

Nothing! What you gonna do about it? Sue them?

 

[navychop]

When you have a self-selected sample population in a survey, you tend to skew the results heavily toward negative or adverse results. There is an internal inclination to report problems, but not the lack of problems. A problem is an incentive toward action. A lack of problems provides no incentive toward action- there is no reason for action as there is no objective to seek.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

The survey encouraged everyone to please respond. It was phrased for people to report their HDMI experience, not their problem.

The # of respondents was very close to every survey conducted of MPEG4 receiver owners on this board. That is, there is no supporting evidence that the people responding differed much from other surveys of the same population.

The survey was not scientific, but then there really is no evidence that people were less than honest in their responses. The problem incident rate held very close to a constant from 30 responses right up to 200. There were no spikes.

Sure there may have been a handful of people who tried to bias the results. That's typical in an on-line survey.

My educated (M.S. in Statistics) guess is that at least 20% of everyone who is using the HDMI connector is having problems. There is a very good chance that this is a low estimate. And there is a very good chance that the number will grow higher over time. Many of the people reporting that they were having no problems as yet had only had the boxes for 1-2 months.

So I would not be the least bit surprised if the problems over a 12-18 month period would approach 50%, if E* doesn't provide a software and/or hardware fix.

And if it is hardware, they had best incorporate a fix in the assembly line ASAP or else they could have tens of thousands of defective units to deal with over the next 5 or more years. A lot of 622 owners are using component connections and should they buy new HDTVs, they are likely to then start using HDMI. So people may be sitting on problem units and not know it.

What remains to be seen is if it is hardware and once one's 12 month warranty expires, will E* want people to pay for a repair/replacement.

What is interesting is that few 942 owners report HDMI problems. If they were assembled in the same fashion, then that gives more weight to this being a software problem.

 

[bhelms]

Nothing! What you gonna do about it? Sue them?

No. Like I said elsewhere in the post, I'm satisfied with how they handled my situation. Others may not be, especially if they have had a recurrence. I'm really trying to be proactive about this!

I'm very interested in what E* will be doing about this issue going forward. If the HDMI connector they designed-in is a weak link leading to a rash of problems, is there a workaround that E* will be releasing to the 211/411/622 community? This could be a cable with a support system, as mentioned, or something else yet to be designed. As a minimum you'd think they would issue some kind of cautionary bulletin that the cable needs to be supported and not moved around unnecessarily, or whatever. The brief mention about it Mon. evening fell far short of that.

Maybe you're right - they'll do nothing. Then for the life of the product they will continue to have the added tech calls, complaints, swap-outs, and associated costs, for perhaps as many as 40% (Tom B's number, including all models) of the users. If this were my business, I think I'd take a hard look at that...!