HDMI Scam

I'm not qualified to discuss this from the scientific side.
But from what I read, the science is sound (no pun intended :)), and I do know what BS science is...

My understanding:
Jitter means clock issues. The clock data is NOT transfered.
(There was an article referenced some years ago on AVS about how Meridian tackles this...)
The signal (zip) arrives bit perfect and is unzipped bit perfect (no decryption issues).
DA conversion with the player's clock introduces jitter.

As a side note: the zip analogy isn't quite right here.
Audio/video playback is a time sensitive stream while zip/unzip applies to a file outside the time domain.

Diogen.

Sigh. There may not be much point unless we can discuss on a technical level, especially if you say 'don't get technical' and then come back with technical issues.

I don't agree that the clock is local. Actually, the clock is distributed, but not coupled. There is a data clock involved in sending the bitstream out, and one at the receiving end (receiver or television for audio/video) to decode the signal. The jitter you speak of is the change in skew between the two. Either side can introduce it. On the source side, a bit can be sent out early or late. On the receiving side, the signal can be sampled at the wrong time. There are synchronizing sequences built in that are designed to periodically get the clocks back in synch.

The jitter can introduce a bit error if it samples before or after a transition takes place. However, the system was designed with good margins and oscillators are pretty good these days. It would take a very poor design to exceed the sampling window. Just shouldn't happen with a clean signal.

However, little of this relates to your diagram, except in one point. If the cable has a high capacitance, it will have a longer rise and fall time and the receiving end can sample before (pos transition) or after (neg transition) the signal has crossed the threshold. This would introduce a bit error, but it would have nothing to do with jitter. That would tend to show too many samples at one or the other parity, thus introducing the macroblocking in video or pops in audio, not frequency loss.

I guess we could introduce jitter into the equation if we figured that early or late sampling only happened 'sometimes'. In that case, the bit error rate would be less predictable. If the early/late jitter was predictable, you might see a high frequency loss but it would be difficult to predict it in normal consumer operation. You certainly could create it under lab conditions, but that isn't real life.

Again, I need to read second level material. The link you provided is two experts arguing, and each (politely) calling the other one a damned fool. It is very difficult to take sides with all the jargon and marginaly valid experiements taking place.

I think I will drop back out of this now. I think this is religious, and I really don't want to get into a theology discussion.
 
I feel comfortable with equations and such but have never done anything with them related to audio - reason, I feel not qualified.

RE: the discussion.
I think both believe in "measurability" but only one believes in audibility. And the rest of the discussion is trying to find polite synonyms to "damn fool"...:)
But this is better than most of the discussions of this kind.

What I learned from that discussion: having a $100K home theater is a prerequisite for starting talking about audible jitter...

Diogen.
 
Its almost as bad as the "Gold" plated RG59 cables that Radio Shack sells.

The worst ones are the customers who buy a $400 Vizio TV and then spend $79 on an HDMI cable. The problem is the TV, NOT the cable!

The husband of my wife's friend did just that, except he only paid $50.00 for the cable. This was after having a number of discussions between him & me, and me telling him repeatedly that all my HDMI and other cables were purchased through MonoPrice.com. But he's one of those people that will eat up anything a salesperson will tell him and believe it.

This BS about upper price cables being the best reminds me back to when I would help my friends pick out audio systems. Back in the 70's/80's, there were a few "Audio Stores" in Chicago that were specialty shops ( not like the Best Buys Or CC). Anyway, you would go into there "Listening Room" and they would let you sit down in a nice, comfortable chair, and then play different sound systems for you. All they needed to do was press a button on the console and and you could hear whichever system you wanted. The thing that most people didn't realize, is that they had the volume turned slightly up on the more expensive systems to make it sound more impressive and clearer. Of course the increase volume was always explained as " the added power and lower S/N, along with the very low T.H.D. and the fine attention to the purest and cleanest sound reproduction."
When ask if I could adjust the volume while we listen, you could see small beads of sweat on 95% of the salespersons...LOL.

There were some great salespeople out there at certain places, and it was a great pleasure shopping at those places, mainly because those certain salespeople truly loved audio and really got into discussing the real qualities of certain systems.

Ghpr13:)
 

The husband of my wife's friend did just that, except he only paid $50.00 for the cable. This was after having a number of discussions between him & me, and me telling him repeatedly that all my HDMI and other cables were purchased through MonoPrice.com. But he's one of those people that will eat up anything a salesperson will tell him and believe it.

This BS about upper price cables being the best reminds me back to when I would help my friends pick out audio systems. Back in the 70's/80's, there were a few "Audio Stores" in Chicago that were specialty shops ( not like the Best Buys Or CC). Anyway, you would go into there "Listening Room" and they would let you sit down in a nice, comfortable chair, and then play different sound systems for you. All they needed to do was press a button on the console and and you could hear whichever system you wanted. The thing that most people didn't realize, is that they had the volume turned slightly up on the more expensive systems to make it sound more impressive and clearer. Of course the increase volume was always explained as " the added power and lower S/N, along with the very low T.H.D. and the fine attention to the purest and cleanest sound reproduction."
When ask if I could adjust the volume while we listen, you could see small beads of sweat on 95% of the salespersons...LOL.

There were some great salespeople out there at certain places, and it was a great pleasure shopping at those places, mainly because those certain salespeople truly loved audio and really got into discussing the real qualities of certain systems.

Ghpr13:)

There were and still are a few stores like that around here in CT. The reason those systems sound better, and they do, is because they have really nice speakers. They sell Klipsch, B&W, Magnapan, Thiel, Paradigm and other high end names. They really do sound better, but not because of the speaker cables or interconnects, it's the higher quality speakers. At high volumes, better amps matter, too, since they handle the current demands. Basically though, it's the speakers.
 
Tried to be a good wife and.purchased a 3dtv,3d blueray, 4 pairs of glasses so hubby could play ps3 in 3d. Installer hooked me up 4 $600. Then my retAiler tells me I need 1.4 hdmi to view true 3d. InstAller comes back and charges $200 4 difference in the 2 cables and $275 to fish out old & put in new. I find out ps3 has a patch that makes this superfluous. I call tv manufacturer to ask why they don't have a patch that seems could be easily downloaded given their internet accessible tv. I am told that 1.3 hdmi is fine. What is the real story, and any possible solutions? This has become extremely expensive!!!!
 
also, I am not into spending another $300 to have installer run the required Ethernet cable behind the tv. so, I need to perhaps purchase a Samsung wireless adapter....does it have to be a Samsung and if so, is there a retail store where I can purchase it...instead of online?
 
There were and still are a few stores like that around here in CT. The reason those systems sound better, and they do, is because they have really nice speakers. They sell Klipsch, B&W, Magnapan, Thiel, Paradigm and other high end names. They really do sound better, but not because of the speaker cables or interconnects, it's the higher quality speakers. At high volumes, better amps matter, too, since they handle the current demands. Basically though, it's the speakers.

I do agree that sometimes in was because of the difference in speakers (specially the ones you named) or an amp, but when "stereo shops" were plentiful, before the BBs and CCs, some sales people would use "sound tricks" to draw you to a certain brand. Similar to how the BBs and other big box stores have certain HD TVs set to a "demo" setting to draw customers to certain units.

Ghpr13:)
 
Tried to be a good wife and.purchased a 3dtv,3d blueray, 4 pairs of glasses so hubby could play ps3 in 3d. Installer hooked me up 4 $600. Then my retAiler tells me I need 1.4 hdmi to view true 3d. InstAller comes back and charges $200 4 difference in the 2 cables and $275 to fish out old & put in new. I find out ps3 has a patch that makes this superfluous. I call tv manufacturer to ask why they don't have a patch that seems could be easily downloaded given their internet accessible tv. I am told that 1.3 hdmi is fine. What is the real story, and any possible solutions? This has become extremely expensive!!!!

Rhea,
HDMI 1.4 is not necessary for 3D. A HDMI 1.3 cable will work fine. The things that HDMI 1.4 supports have not come to be yet. Take a look at the last entry on this page:
HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 - CNET Home audio & video Forums

Hope that helps, and sorry that it sounds like that installer got one over on you.

Ghpr13:(
 
I do agree that sometimes in was because of the difference in speakers (specially the ones you named) or an amp, but when "stereo shops" were plentiful, before the BBs and CCs, some sales people would use "sound tricks" to draw you to a certain brand. Similar to how the BBs and other big box stores have certain HD TVs set to a "demo" setting to draw customers to certain units.

Ghpr13:)

True, many stores of all varieties use tricks to sell their goods. We need to be educated BEFORE we go into the stores!
 

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