How does Dish get Ethernet Phone-Home Location?

[jpmarto]

I have two 622's, both connected to my home network where they are given 192.168.x.x private and non-routable addresses. Both are port address translated through my home router which has a 72.112.0.X address (Verizon). The Verizon address changes a few times a month. How does Dish Network resolve the Verizon address of 72.112.0.X address to a physical location of my receivers?

BTW, it appears phone home is on a monthly basis, my last contact was 10/28 and the next is scheduled for 11/27.

Thanks!

 

[geekboy2000]

I would guess that they don't resolve to the physical address of your receiver, and that rather, whenever the receiver phones home (regardless of the current IP), it passes the receiver ID with it. A phone number doesn't guarantee the physical location of the receiver either. Just a guess though.

 

[mattopia]

It's pretty easy for them to determine where your source IP is routed from. But, it's also easy for anyone with a bit of knowledge to make their boxes appear to be calling from somewhere else, so I doubt E* really tries to identify where the box is based on IP.

 

[jpmarto]

At least with a phone line it can be resolved to the same telephone number as the account -- sort of keeps their receiver within extension cord range. With Ethernet, the ISP is not likely to resolve an IP to an account without a warrant (Oops, my bad -- in the case of Verizon, they're lobbying Congress for immunity, as they give out customer telephone information, warrant shmarrant!).

My bill went down $10 a month when I put both receivers on my home Network. Not complaining -- I just don't see the logic.

 

[Mainstreet]

They can tell that the 2 receivers are polling from the same ip. That's all that matters to them in regards to the phone home option with multiple receivers on one account (that you aren't stacking).

 

[LER]

if you are using NAT for your home network, they will appear to be at the same IP. if you have non-NAT, each receiver could get their own IP.

Probably from the same block, however.....

Lots of network tricks can be played, but I doubt Dish is being that specific.

(Of course, I don't know for sure...)

LER

 

[ncted]

It is pretty straightforward to get a location from an IP. I don't know that DISH cares enough to do it, but I can tell you that Geo-targeted online ads work quite well. I also have seen very detailed maps of the on-line readership for my company's publications, all based on IP address.

Ted

 

[bkushner]

I don't think Dish cares where your receiver is. They use that fee as a way of pressuring you into connecting a phone/internet so they can sell you their PPV.

 

[BoisePaul]

I don't think Dish cares where your receiver is. They use that fee as a way of pressuring you into connecting a phone/internet so they can sell you their PPV.

Dish doesn't care? Tell that to anyone who's had to deal with the audit gestapo.

 

[John Kotches]

It is pretty straightforward to get a location from an IP.

Really? Hmmm.... Let's see how it works with my IP address [24.182.xxx.yyy]

It comes up with Hickory North Carolina (see attachment). I live (give or take) 650 miles from there. Not exactly good on the locating there is it?

I don't know that DISH cares enough to do it, but I can tell you that Geo-targeted online ads work quite well.

How? It's missing by 650 miles for me. If you can explain to me how a geo-targeted ad works well I'm all ears (see below).

I also have seen very detailed maps of the on-line readership for my company's publications, all based on IP address.

I'm curious how technical you are. You're placing far too much faith in the accuracy of the maps when dealing with national ISPs. Think ATT, Verizon and the Cable Cos. These have Class A or Class B address spaces they are doling out from what appears to be a single location that is geographically diverse.

It's quite amusing to read this.

 

[mattopia]

Not necessarily. Most cable co's and DSL providers have regional points to route from. It would be very messy to be layer 2 all the way back to their main office. Even if they have a /16 aggregate (or more than likely multiple /16's), they will still usually break those down into /23's or /24's at the regional level.

Even if their CIDR blocks are not SWIP'ed and just listed as one huge block in the ARIN WHOIS database, there are still multiple ways to determine the rough location of an IP. First, most dsl/cable providers have PTR records in their DNS that resolve to something like xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx.clvoh.whatever.com, clvoh being a code for Cleveland OH for example. Also, I imagine they may get a bit of a kickback from marketing or geoip companies for just such purposes.

Now, let's go back to the example of 24.182.x.x. You've only given me two of th four octets to work with, so you're right, that "class B" (although, technically, everything is CIDR now, so that would be a /16 in CIDR notation) That range is owned by Charter and lists their main office address in St. Louis in their ARIN registration, which means that with just the first two octets it cannot be traced anywhere. However, let's make up an IP address... 24.182.195.55. That IP resolves to xxxxxx.ftwo.tx.charter.com, which means that IP is for their Fort Worth, Texas market.

Now, it's entirely possible that your traffic goes through Tor, through a work VPN, through a proxy server, or any of a dozen other ways to disguise the true source. However, the point is it's relatlively easy -- in most cases -- to determine the rough geographic location.

As another example, my source IP is 68.107.194.0/24. Although the ARIN registration that most whois sites will show (at least, those that query the ARIN whois) shows Atlanta, GA, the entire netblock resolves in xxxx.cl.ri.cox.net. The "cl" means Cleveland in this case. And, the GeoIP database also lists me in Cleveland, which is correct.

Anyone who thinks they are hard to trace online is sadly mistaken, unless they are taking some type of precautions (Tor etc) otherwise.

 

[John Kotches]

Not necessarily. Most cable co's and DSL providers have regional points to route from. It would be very messy to be layer 2 all the way back to their main office. Even if they have a /16 aggregate (or more than likely multiple /16's), they will still usually break those down into /23's or /24's at the regional level.

/24 is relatively small; even for a regional level. Now, if you want to make that into a hut or a CO that's much better.

This is the era of larger ISPs with the telcos and cable cos dominating the landscape.

Even if their CIDR blocks are not SWIP'ed and just listed as one huge block in the ARIN WHOIS database, there are still multiple ways to determine the rough location of an IP. First, most dsl/cable providers have PTR records in their DNS that resolve to something like xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx.clvoh.whatever.com, clvoh being a code for Cleveland OH for example. Also, I imagine they may get a bit of a kickback from marketing or geoip companies for just such purposes.

You're assuming that everyone uses something that's easy to parse... Not a guarantee.

Now, let's go back to the example of 24.182.x.x. You've only given me two of th four octets to work with, so you're right, that "class B" (although, technically, everything is CIDR now, so that would be a /16 in CIDR notation) That range is owned by Charter and lists their main office address in St. Louis in their ARIN registration, which means that with just the first two octets it cannot be traced anywhere. However, let's make up an IP address... 24.182.195.55. That IP resolves to xxxxxx.ftwo.tx.charter.com, which means that IP is for their Fort Worth, Texas market.

Nope, I went straight for my address, I simply used one of the geoproviders to get the info. It was only off by 1/4 of the country.

It's one thing for you to parse an address resolved back to a name; and quite another for programs to do so. It's child's play with some of them; but not so much with others.

For the accomplished, it's simply a cut or awk statement -- but then you have to filter that through some sort of table to go from abbreviations to city/state pairs. To further complicate matters, the approaches change based on ISP.

Now, it's entirely possible that your traffic goes through Tor, through a work VPN, through a proxy server, or any of a dozen other ways to disguise the true source. However, the point is it's relatlively easy -- in most cases -- to determine the rough geographic location.

Routing is orthogonal to source location. It's a complete non sequitur to the discussion at hand.

As another example, my source IP is 68.107.194.0/24. Although the ARIN registration that most whois sites will show (at least, those that query the ARIN whois) shows Atlanta, GA, the entire netblock resolves in xxxx.cl.ri.cox.net. The "cl" means Cleveland in this case. And, the GeoIP database also lists me in Cleveland, which is correct.

Based on earlier discussion now you have to have an entry for Cleveland. Cleveland OH or Cleveland RI? That's not intuitively obcious based on the returned DNS name.

Is CL Cleveland OH or Clearwater, FL? Maybe it's CumberLand Rhode Island.

Your knowledge is based on where you're sitting rather than looking at it in the abstract.

Anyone who thinks they are hard to trace online is sadly mistaken, unless they are taking some type of precautions (Tor etc) otherwise.

Tracing is a seperate matter entirely from data gathering.

And we haven't even gotten into aggregations and proxies which really throws a wrench into the whole works.

Still, it is interesting discussion