Looking for advise on Dish network for Condo building

[JCL333]

Hello,

I am the handyman at a 4-story, 7-unit Condo building near Boston and I am looking into getting Dish Network setup for some of the residents, including myself, there are 4 units interested in this. I have had Dish Network before about 4 years ago and I installed it myself. I had one DishPro 500 / DP34 switch and I used a 30” Wineguard to get a nice strong 61.5 signal. We control the condo association so there is no problem there, the main thing is we all agree that setting up one set of dishes that we can all use is much better than putting 8-10 dishes up and down the side of our building, and our neighbors will probably appreciate that too. We have a flat roof and no obstructions so no problem there.

So basically I am looking for some recommendations. I have been trying to read up on the new dish equipment such as the 1000.4 and new Mpeg4 equipment, looks like all good stuff. The parts I have to figure out are how to feed the signals to the number of receivers I will need. I see that I can chain up to six DP44 switches together to feed up to 24 dual-tuner receivers. So, here are some of my questions as concerns:

* All the units are pre-wired from the utility room on the first floor with just one cable that has one Cat5e network and one quad-shielded RG6, so unfortunately I may have a problem for anyone (like myself) who wants a receiver in more than one room. Also, considering cable distance limits, it probably does not make sense to run as many as 24 cables down the side of the building to the utility room only to go back up the building again through the in-wall feeds. So it looks like I will have to run some separate wires down the side of the building in that case, does anyone know of a way around this? Is there any way to run multiple (possibly two-tuner) receivers using a single RG6 line to each unit? I don’t see any unit having more than three receivers, three tops, but they would likely all be HD.

* What do people think about using several single 30” dishes (an array of 4 of them for 4 sat locations) instead of these multi-satellite dishes? When you use a multi-sat dish you are sacrificing a small amount of signal to be able to do that. I found that 30” dishes give you a big advantage “powering through” even the worst snowstorm with more than max signal strength. I am considering this because once installed I don’t want to be going up on the roof to fiddle with them, and I certainly don’t wall everyone to lose their signal or experience drop-outs in heavy rain or snow. Thoughts?

* I am in a good location for OTA signal, so I want to include an antenna and distribute that signal around. All of my stations are located in a 180-degree arc from my location. Anyone have any experience with some of these omni-directional antennas? I don’t think having a moving directional antenna would be practical for this case. I am going to try and avoid using diplexers as I have heard that you can lose a huge amount of your signal strength with them. So likely I will run separate cables for that.

If anyone can recommend a particular online place that would both sell equipment and offer installation design advice for a case like this, I would appreciate it. I see the sponsors of this site and I will check through those, but if people know of one in particular that would be helpful in this case, that would be great.

Thanks

-JCL333

 

[CowboyDren]

You really need a Dish MRU setup, but these could be cost prohibitive.

If you were willing to settle for "1.5 tuners per unit," a 722[K] in each unit can feed one HD and one SD TV per unit from a single feed line from the utility room. Topology would be easy enough; a single 1000.2 or 1000.4 dish on the roof or side of the building, with three RG6 feeds down to the utility room into a DPP44 multiswitch, which can cascade to other multiswitches. The single RG6-QS running to each unit would go from one '44 output port to a 722 in the living room, each 722 has a separator (to feed the dual tuners), and the TV2 output on the 722 could go to the master bedroom. An improvement on this would be to have THREE aftermarket 30-40" dishes, each with a DP Twin LNBF pointed at 110/119/129 or 61.5/72/77, or even 61.5/110/119. There's no difference in cabling, just dish mounting.

This suits a lot of needs, but not everyone. The major caveat is that there's no room for expansion; one DVR per unit, indefinitely. The secondary caveat to this is that at 10PM, you have up to 7 people trying to use their UHF Pro remotes to control 7 different DVRs. You'd have to make a gentlemen's rule that the unit number corresponds to the UHF remote address, and someone (like you) would be responsible for compliance and programming the 722s and remotes. Not really a big deal.

The OTA part is stickier. Using TVFool.com, can you post the PNG image of your radar plot post-transition? If you're close to the towers, there's no reason that you couldn't use an Omni antenna, a distribution amplifier, another 1*8 splitter, and a big bag of diplexers to insert OTA signals into the to-unit RG6. Unfortunately, there's nothing like the old school Dish-compatible multiswitches that could do it for you. Each output of the multiswitch that feeds a unit would need a 3" extension cable, a feed from the 1*8 OTA splitter, into a diplexer, and then up to the unit. In each unit, you'd get the RG6-QS out of the wall, into a diplexer to split the signals, into the separator, and into the 722. It'd be ugly as sin, but it should work just fine. Instead of 3*RG6 cables from the roof to the utility room, you'd need 4, which handily comes on spools, all four conductors bonded together.

Once the network is laid, though, everyone in the building has access to at least OTA HD, and if they get a Dish account, you just go down to the utility room, and move the to-unit RG6 from the antenna splitter to the multiswitch. If you do 61.5/110/119 (1000.2 + 30" 61.5 wing dish), your tennants could even buy their own gear from Radio Shack. The 322s and 625s that Radio Shack sells won't work in the pure MPEG-4 Eastern Arc service.

 

[IIP]

Dren covered things pretty well. A Dish MRU setup would not be at all cost-effective with only 7 units. You'd need a single building with 50 or more units to even think about that.

With only 7, you're doing simple antenna consolidation, which is exactly what makes sense.

As Dren states, without running additional cable to the units, you'd be limited to a single receiver per unit. It can be a dual-tuner, dual-output receiver, but that's it. In order to expand, additional cables would need to be run.

Were I building this system, I'd purchase three or even four 30" D-channel dishes (Winegard DS-2077) and 3 or 4 DP Dual LNBs and as many DPP44 switches as you need to start (2-3). I'd run 2 lines per LNB into the network closet so I'd have the ability to run a total of 6 DPP44 switches if need be. OTA antenna as Dren described shouldn't be a problem either.

I would NOT go Eastern Arc at this time, as not everything is available from EA yet, but you may need that 4th orbital to get your locals if they're only available on 77. Staying on WA also allows your tenants to use older MPEG2 receivers that they may already have. EA requires all MPEG4 (ViP-series) receivers. With the dish setup I describe, it would be simple to switch to EA later, as long as the dishes were mounted where they'd have LOS to both EA and WA sats.

 

[JCL333]

First let me say you guys rock! This is some great info....

You really need a Dish MRU setup, but these could be cost prohibitive.

Yeah, I am looking into this. I see some systems that are not too bad, but they are for Direct TV. Don't see anything that says they can work for Dish also.

If you were willing to settle for "1.5 tuners per unit," a 722[K] in each unit can feed one HD and one SD TV per unit from a single feed line from the utility room. Topology would be easy enough; a single 1000.2 or 1000.4 dish on the roof or side of the building, with three RG6 feeds down to the utility room into a DPP44 multiswitch, which can cascade to other multiswitches.

OK, I am with you so far, but I thought the DPP44 switch had to be as close to the dish as possible, like 10' or so. In this arrangement it would be like 75' because it is a 4 story building.


The single RG6-QS running to each unit would go from one '44 output port to a 722 in the living room, each 722 has a separator (to feed the dual tuners), and the TV2 output on the 722 could go to the master bedroom. An improvement on this would be to have THREE aftermarket 30-40" dishes, each with a DP Twin LNBF pointed at 110/119/129 or 61.5/72/77, or even 61.5/110/119. There's no difference in cabling, just dish mounting.

OK, well that confirms my question about the individual dishes, it is the way to go. I have to say though, I am totally confused as to which orbital positions I need for all programming. I understand the first two, but when you start mixing and matching....can you do that? My setup years ago I think was 110/119/61.5.

This suits a lot of needs, but not everyone. The major caveat is that there's no room for expansion; one DVR per unit, indefinitely. The secondary caveat to this is that at 10PM, you have up to 7 people trying to use their UHF Pro remotes to control 7 different DVRs. You'd have to make a gentlemen's rule that the unit number corresponds to the UHF remote address, and someone (like you) would be responsible for compliance and programming the 722s and remotes. Not really a big deal.

Oh OK, good tip on that. You are right, easily worked out. Fortunately we have metal and concrete between floors.

The OTA part is stickier. Using TVFool.com, can you post the PNG image of your radar plot post-transition? If you're close to the towers, there's no reason that you couldn't use an Omni antenna, a distribution amplifier, another 1*8 splitter, and a big bag of diplexers to insert OTA signals into the to-unit RG6.

Hey, great website. Here you go.

I am wondering if I could use more than one directional antenna and combine the signal... don't know if that would work.


Unfortunately, there's nothing like the old school Dish-compatible multiswitches that could do it for you. Each output of the multiswitch that feeds a unit would need a 3" extension cable, a feed from the 1*8 OTA splitter, into a diplexer, and then up to the unit. In each unit, you'd get the RG6-QS out of the wall, into a diplexer to split the signals, into the separator, and into the 722. It'd be ugly as sin, but it should work just fine. Instead of 3*RG6 cables from the roof to the utility room, you'd need 4, which handily comes on spools, all four conductors bonded together.

Yeah, this much I got. Mainly I am wondering how much of the signal you lose after running it through all of that? You would think there would be nothing left.


Once the network is laid, though, everyone in the building has access to at least OTA HD, and if they get a Dish account, you just go down to the utility room, and move the to-unit RG6 from the antenna splitter to the multiswitch. If you do 61.5/110/119 (1000.2 + 30" 61.5 wing dish), your tennants could even buy their own gear from Radio Shack. The 322s and 625s that Radio Shack sells won't work in the pure MPEG-4 Eastern Arc service.

Well, since I am starting all new, I would think I would want to start with all MPEG4 equipment right?

Thanks again

-JCL

 

[JCL333]

Dren covered things pretty well. A Dish MRU setup would not be at all cost-effective with only 7 units. You'd need a single building with 50 or more units to even think about that.

Do you have any links to some of these things that work for Dish anyway? I see the systems for Direct TV and it looks like I could keep it around $1500 for the equipment... one of the most expensive parts is the "customer end" unit, especially the one that can do 4 receivers. And the thing also does the OTA stuff so it might be worth it.

With only 7, you're doing simple antenna consolidation, which is exactly what makes sense.

Yep, here in Somerville, MA the city flower is a Dish, we don't want to make it worse than it already is.


As Dren states, without running additional cable to the units, you'd be limited to a single receiver per unit. It can be a dual-tuner, dual-output receiver, but that's it. In order to expand, additional cables would need to be run.

I am going to look into this with my electrician. These cables are fed through pipes, it might not be impossible to feed more, I don't know.

The other possibility would be to go down the outside of the building with the additional cables needed. Not great, but doable. Still better than having dishes there. And at that point I can actually get the job done with "non commercial" sat equipment.


Were I building this system, I'd purchase three or even four 30" D-channel dishes (Winegard DS-2077) and 3 or 4 DP Dual LNBs and as many DPP44 switches as you need to start (2-3). I'd run 2 lines per LNB into the network closet so I'd have the ability to run a total of 6 DPP44 switches if need be. OTA antenna as Dren described shouldn't be a problem either.

I definitely will go with the individual dishes. If nothing else I have 100% freedom to change sats any time... I could go with the old one's or these new Mpeg4 one's any time.

So in your scenario I would have what, 9 cables down to the closet? 4 LNBs x2 + OTA feed?

This sounds fine except that as I noted in the other post, I am wondering about the distances. I know the distance between switch and receiver is long, like 150'+ which is plenty, but I thought you couldn't have the switch that far away from the dish?

I would NOT go Eastern Arc at this time, as not everything is available from EA yet, but you may need that 4th orbital to get your locals if they're only available on 77. Staying on WA also allows your tenants to use older MPEG2 receivers that they may already have. EA requires all MPEG4 (ViP-series) receivers. With the dish setup I describe, it would be simple to switch to EA later, as long as the dishes were mounted where they'd have LOS to both EA and WA sats.

Is 77 available yet? I see lots of old posts about it, but I have not seen the date it was/is to go live? None of the tenants have any existing sat equipment, and these are condos not apartments so we don't have that much turnover.

Yeah, I have ultimate LOS... a flat roof and no obstructions whatsoever. So leave enough space between dishes and I can re-aim them later as needed.

Thanks


-JCL333

 

[Dah-Henny]

I would NOT go Eastern Arc at this time, as not everything is available from EA yet...

Everything (national channels) Dish has to offer is available on the EA.

edit: 77 is available

 

[Dah-Henny]

One more thing...if you wanted to save some cash on those dpp44 switches, 3 EA dishes will feed 9 dual tuner receivers WITHOUT a switch.

 

[CowboyDren]

I like the individual dish idea, especially for fine tuning the signal. The transmitters on the new 110w and 129w birds are over twice as powerful as the old gear at 61.5 and 119w. I think that 61.5 is next to get replaced, though. The only real advantage to ea gear is the improved picture quality on non high def channels; they look almost as good as ota sd! I don't think that your long cable runs are going to be a problem, as long as you aren't foolish and abusive. It would be excellent to get a pair of rg6 into each unit. Pursue that.

 

[cparker]

Not sure which OTA channels you're after, but if it's just the ones with LOS according to that plot... you're only 10 miles from them. You could probably get them perfectly with a coat hanger.

 

[IIP]

IIRC, 119 will be replaced mid 2010, and 61.5 at the end of 2010 per the current contract information. Dish just signed the contract to build the new 61.5 sat.

The antenna plot is going to make OTA pretty easy, as it looks like a full compliment of OTA stations are all available in the "green" (very good signal levels) and all from roughly the same direction. I'd probably put up a "batwing" (Winegard GS-2200) and call it good.

I agree that the cable lengths shouldn't be a problem for the DPP44, given that they're powered, as long as the coax is RG6. If it's RG59, then, "Houston, we have a problem."

 

[CowboyDren]

What I love about the Omni antennas (MetroStar, SMARTenna, etc) is that they're VERY durable. I don't see why one of these won't work for your green zone stations, but it's quite iffy with the yellow stations. A single Winegard HD7000R will absolutely, positively pick up everything from channel 7 up to 43 in the green zone of that plot from 230°, and probably from 270° as well. It will also handily blow the doors off of a batwing. It would likely pick up signal from the 176° direction, as we're only talking about 60° of deviation between the really close stations and the 1Edge stations (though that antenna wouldn't pick up from 270° anymore).

You'd get better performance from a 4-bay bowtie (Antennas Direct dB4, Channelmaster 4221, Winegard HD-4400) on the UHF stations. One antenna would probably pick up everything from 270° all the way to 176° if you point it 196°. I'd bet that it'd work fine on channel 7 (NBC), though you're taking a risk with channels 9, 10, 12, and 13 in the yellow zone. That could also be solved with a quality VHF-Hi specific antenna, pointing the same way, merged with the bowtie using a Channelmaster CM-7777 combiner-amp. Start with the bowtie and a 7777 amp (that's $100 initial investment), see what you can get, and then add a VHF-Hi antenna IF you must (at which point you may spend up to an additional $150 getting it sorted out).

 

[CowboyDren]

One more thing...if you wanted to save some cash on those dpp44 switches, 3 EA dishes will feed 9 dual tuner receivers WITHOUT a switch.

Well, he said he doesn't want to drill new holes and run wires along the face of the building, which makes that unattractive. It also means that when a storm comes through, there's a chance that he'd have to fix the mounts and peak 1, 2, or 3 complex multi-satellite dishes.

Also, it looks like he's not afraid of spending a little money...which is good. Very good.

 

[Awohar]

If just one wire to each unit is all you can get, then do this:

put one satellite receiver in the unit and additional satellite receivers in the maintenance closet and backfeed the remote antenna up to the individual units themselves. If you use only 722 or 222 receivers in the maintenance closet, you can modulate tv1 and tv2 output channels on the receiver directly. maintenance closet receivers won't be hd up to the units themselves.

here is example for use remote antenna backfeed...

backfeed

 

[PBX_Guy]

First let me say you guys rock! This is some great info....

-JCL

Faced with your situation, with all due consideration for aesthetics & minimal cables runs, minimal rooftop hardware, as well as containing costs, I might be very tempted to consider the competitor's offering. Their single-wire multiswitch works well and is comparatively dirt cheap for up to 8 drops (8 total tuners). Bear in mind that each DVR would consume 2 of those 8 and the maximum (without buying expensive MDU hardware) is 8, period. For more info search the competitor's discussion threads for the term "SWM"

 

[CowboyDren]

here is example for use remote antenna backfeed...

backfeed

Great example of the raw, unbridled flexibility of Dish hardware, but that configuration allows for 0 HDTV sets and doesn't allow the tenants to hard reboot their 722s manually when something goes wrong...which it often does.

[D*'s] single-wire multiswitch works well and is comparatively dirt cheap for up to 8 drops (8 total tuners). Bear in mind that each DVR would consume 2 of those 8 and the maximum (without buying expensive MDU hardware) is 8, period. For more info search the competitor's discussion threads for the term "SWM"

Again, Dish hardware allows you to do more "stuff" with one "box" than anything else on the commercial market. If you had four tenants who wanted DVRs, and each of them only had one HDTV or didn't mind the SDTV mirroring the HDTV's picture, this would be fine. But we're talking about twice that number of tenants who may want to be able to watch two different programs at the same time.

Not picking a fight with anyone, just pointing out options. When you start talking about real MRU gear, with real MRU cost and real MRU service, the tables probably get reset again.

 

[Awohar]

7 condos with 3 dvr each and thats 21 total tuners. that only mean 3 swm dishes on roof, not bad.

for dish, my example was put 1 receiver in actual unit so customer have hd on 1 tv. additional outlets are fed by receivers in telecom closet.

does this building not have any chases in the internal walls for stink pipes and such that might allow for additional receivers in the units themselves...even if they are put in a closet for direct owner control.

 

[JCL333]

OK, once again, this is some great info!

I really like the suggestion from PBX_Guy, I was not aware of the SWM hardware available from DTV. This suggestion is even better than you may or may not be aware of----this also references Awohar's comment, check it out:

DirecTV SWM8 - Single Wire Multiswitch - $159 Including Power Inserter - Free Shipping

This allows you to double the number to 16 tuners with their hardware. But, there is another thing to consider here. If I am going with the separate individual dishes idea, and each of them has two outputs, then I could already feed two of these SWM switches. Or two of the above devices for 32 tuners, etc. etc. This while only increasing my cable runs down the side of the building by 1 for every 8 tuners. And each tenant can essentially have as many tuners as they want. This solution even incorporates OTA as well.

I have no particular loyalty or preference for DTV or Dish. I see the discussions on this topic go on and on. Looks like Dish has better consumer hardware, and is a little cheaper on packages. DTV appears to be better on customer service. And as of this find, appears to have much better MRU gear for the price.

Aside from that, I am expecting most tenants to want at least 1 HD DVR and generally not more than two receivers total. Me personally, my wife is Japanese and wants TV Japan which is only on Dish. So unless I can find better MRU gear for Dish, I might get one little dish JUST for her to get TV Japan and do everything else with DTV.

As far as antenna's go for OTA stuff. I am just wondering how much of an advantage it will be directional vs. not directional. Seem like even a directional antenna will probably get everything in the green zone without moving it... so that would only be for getting the distant channels in the other zones. But to be fair, I don't really know what programming is on all of these channels, I think I would sort of have to discover it. There is a ton of useless stuff on OTA. The problem with distant channels and a directional of course is, if I am feeding an MRU system, who gets to point the antenna where? ;-) Aside from that, I am going on the roof anyways and antennas are cheap. Why not take advantage of free HD programming?

-JCL

 

[IIP]

Just to be clear, a SWM8 only feeds 8 tuners, and you must use a legacy (non-SWM-LNB) dish to feed it. However, you can use a single dish to feed multiple SWM8 switches (I'd limit it to 4 without extra signal amplification). You simply use sat-rated (5-2,250 MHz-rated) power-passing splitters and split the 4 lines coming from the dish. Make sure that when you split a line that all lines coming from that splitter go into the same port on each SWM.