New Avenger PLL321S-2 LNB Installed

[jorgek]

I can't imagine that with the LNB connected that an extra 130ma draw would cause the motor to act up. Is it possible that the power supply in the receiver is not able to supply the required mils to run both the LNB and motor? Is there a thermal cut off to prevent the power supply from overheating?

Now if you could only hookup the meter in series with the power and measure the current draw with the motor and LNB powered up and see if you are exceeding the receiver specs.

 

[cyberham]

I tend to agree. I'll see if I can take a direct reading of current tomorrow with motor running and LNB powered. That could be a challenge when working on a ladder alone. There's still the possibility I have an LNB that is intermittent and the voltage has nothing to do with it.

Added: The microHD spec for LNB IN port says 500 mA with a thermal reset. Motor spec is 200 mA nominal, 350 mA maximum. Avenger spec says 165 mA maximum. Worst case: 350 + 165 = 515 mA. Hmmm...thermal reset?

 

[jorgek]

Those results are impressive. Have you tried AMC 1 with the crazy skew? Since I put my 31" dish on the motor I can't adjust the skew no matter how much I have played with the LNB. The motor skews the dish as it travels across the arc. So when it reaches AMC 1 its already skewed in the wrong direction. So I fiddled with the LNB to compensate and I finally gave up. I was able to get AMC 1 ok when the dish was fixed and carefully adjusting the LNB.

 

[tdti1]

Some freinds of mine ran quad rg-6 I never noticed a difference, I would rather run solid copper rg-6 or some rg-11.

 

[jorgek]

Some freinds of mine ran quad rg-6 I never noticed a difference, I would rather run solid copper rg-6 or some rg-11.

I would also like to run some RG11, but it is very expensive and awkward to handle, but its great over very long runs.

 

[cyberham]

At 2 GHz, RG-11 has 32% lower RF loss than RG-6. RG-6 has 20% lower RF loss than RG-59. RG-11 is the cable to use to receive maximum RF signal at the receiver. I believe using quad shielded RG-6 is only beneficial to shield from noise pickup which could affect the signal, but I live in a rural area and there shouldn't be so much electrical noise here. My cable runs from outside directly through a window using a short length of flat cable into my receiver without circling around inside my house, probably my greatest source of noise. RG-11 has triple or quad shield whereas standard RG-6 has only double shield.

Core conductor diameter of RG-6 is 1 mm; RG-11 is 1.63 mm. RG-11 should provide lower DC resistance, so a long run of RG-11 might allow better motor performance since there would be lower DC voltage drop over my 200-foot run (not 150 feet as stated earlier). But...RG-11 is expensive and heavy. Local cost at industrial supplier: RG-6U: $0.24/foot; RG-59U: $0.38/ft; RG-214U: $1.38/ft; RG-11U: not listed (probably similar to RG-214). So RG-11 may be 5x more expensive than RG-6. Cable is expensive to ship so local pickup is necessary despite higher /foot cost than far away dealers.

My SG-2100 motor may be near capacity weight-wise dragging my little-bit heavy Star Choice 40"x44" dish from horizon-to-horizon. The motor was happier with my lighter Ariza 39" dish in the beginning. Also, since installing my PLL LNB, I've seen my dish get confused about which way is west and which way is east. The diseqc commands may not be reaching my motor accurately. Repeatedly, I am finding my dish at the extreme west end of its movement when I didn't drive it there. My options seem to be to go back to my old pre-PLL LNB (no no!) or upgrade my cable and/or motor. This $14 PLL LNB is becoming expensive through no fault of it!

Actual measured currents using an inline Daiwa digital ammeter were:
Between motor and PLL LNB (motor stationary or moving): 152 mA

At microHD measuring total current out of LNB IN port:
Motor stationary and LNB ON: 178 mA
Motor moving and LNB ON: 376 mA peak; 230 mA typical

Current peaks were likely higher than measured but these are readings that showed briefly on digital readout. I am noticing motor does not move continuously, but moves/stops/moves probably indication of being voltage starved and overloaded.

I still cannot receive 103W horizontal polarization. I see a bobbling SQ of 10% using incorrect LNB skew on the NBC tp so I know the transponders are there. My location requires at least a 1.1m dish with correct LNB skew. PLL LNB can't perform miracles. This will resolve when SES-3 is online.

There is no question this PLL LNB is a better performer than my non-PLL LNB, but the PLL feature has brought to the surface deficiencies in my system that were previously hidden.

 

[SatelliteAV]

The start/stop motor movement has noting to do with excessive voltage or current draw. Upgrade to the latest microHD firmware to provide continuous motor movement. I would only be concerned if the current draw consistently exceeds 500mA.

Quad shield coax is beneficial in providing reliable DiSEqC signal delivery to the motor and switches. Cable and connector deficiencies are typically first noticed in diagnosing motor and switch control problems. Most users forget about the weak signal commands that also travel through the coax, switches and connectors. These signals are typically much weaker than the IF signals outputted from the LNBF.

 

[jorgek]

The start/stop motor movement has noting to do with excessive voltage or current draw. Upgrade to the latest microHD firmware to provide continuous motor movement. I would only be concerned if the current draw consistently exceeds 500mA.

Quad shield coax is beneficial in providing reliable DiSEqC signal delivery to the motor and switches. Cable and connector deficiencies are typically first noticed in diagnosing motor and switch control problems. Most users forget about the weak signal commands that also travel through the coax, switches and connectors. These signals are typically much weaker than the IF signals outputted from the LNBF.

What about the 200 feet of RG6, does that not seem excessive?

 

[SatelliteAV]

At 200 feet with a motor, PLL and switches, many issues come into play. Shielding is only one consideration. I usually will use higher quality distribution when running over 125' especially if using motors, switches and powering multiple LNB(f)s.

Solid copper vs copper on steel core, percentage of shielding, the type/quality/quantity of connectors, ratings/quantity of barrels/ground blocks, motor pass through signal loss, etc. all will add up quickly to work against reliable reception.

 

[cyberham]

The start/stop motor movement has noting to do with excessive voltage or current draw. Upgrade to the latest microHD firmware to provide continuous motor movement. I would only be concerned if the current draw consistently exceeds 500mA.

Quad shield coax is beneficial in providing reliable DiSEqC signal delivery to the motor and switches. Cable and connector deficiencies are typically first noticed in diagnosing motor and switch control problems. Most users forget about the weak signal commands that also travel through the coax, switches and connectors. These signals are typically much weaker than the IF signals outputted from the LNBF.

I've been looking for a reason to upgrade the firmware; the continuous motor movement is it. I'll do this today. I think each time the motor starts raises the risk of something going wrong since there is a peak of current then and maybe a new diseqc command isssued.

Good to know how weak the diseqc commands are. That could explain some trouble experienced since measured current and voltage seem not so bad. I definitely don't have quad RG-6 but will buy that on any new purchases.

I've been studying dishpointer.com. I may just be moving the entire assembly to a totally new location in my yard that can see 83W through 127W continuously. I have nothing east of 83W I can receive anyway until 15W. Good nobody has to pay us to do all this playing...

 

[cyberham]

At 200 feet with a motor, PLL and switches, many issues come into play. Shielding is only one consideration. I usually will use higher quality distribution when running over 125' especially if using motors, switches and powering multiple LNB(f)s.

Solid copper vs copper on steel core, percentage of shielding, the type/quality/quantity of connectors, ratings/quantity of barrels/ground blocks, motor pass through signal loss, etc. all will add up quickly to work against reliable reception.

This is why in past I've kept all as simple as possible: no switches and one simplest single-port LNB. I've gotten away with only using normal RG-6. Things are now catching up to me. Time to move the dish and start all over again.

 

[jorgek]

Now that's the fun part of this hobby. I'm constantly moving things around. Watching the FTA programs is not all that important to me. I have cable TV and OTA. Living near the US border I get all kinds of OTA from the Bufallo area. One of the OTAs is actualy crossing lake Erie and lake Ontario, about 80 miles away!

 

[Cham]

I usually use RG-214 for connections between tuned cavity filters and repeater radios due to the shielding it provides that can have 100 watts or more of RF energy in one line next to a very sensitive receiver only 600Kcs away. This would be overkill for an FTA installation unless one is a perfectionist.
I believe the RG-11 is considerably cheaper with similar DC resistance properties, and it should be quite common as cable companies use it for their distribution. Maybe your local cable company person (engineer or technician, not sales person!) might know of a spool end that might be hanging around in a back shed somewhere taking up space...

 

[cyberham]

Some pages say loss of RG-11 @ 2.2 GHz is 8.5 dB/100' whereas RG-214 is 15.2 dB/100'. So RG-11 is considerably lower loss at the very high frequencies. I do see Bell/Shaw/Eastlink trucks parked at homes when I go walkabout in my neighbourhood. I might need to be friendly and say hi if I see them outside working in their yards.

 

[Anole]

An alternative

If voltage drop is confirmed to be the problem...
...there are other possibilities...
then how about a simple solution of supplying remote power to the motor?
Big benefit: it always runs on 18-20 volts; never 13v!

 

[jorgek]

If voltage drop is confirmed to be the problem...
...there are other possibilities...
then how about a simple solution of supplying remote power to the motor?
Big benefit: it always runs on 18-20 volts; never 13v!

Okay, running separate power line 200 feet long. What gauge of wire would you recommend?
I guess a 1 amp (1000 mils) PS would be adequate?
How do you connect PS to STB to take full advantage of USALS?

 

[Anole]

I was thinking of using 18 gauge lamp cord. Should be cheap.
Found an on line voltage drop calculator.
http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html
or try others. This was first listed by google.

For 400 feet (out and back) and 350ms draw on the motor, there is about 1.8 volts drop.
I was assuming a 19-20 volt supply; maybe from a laptop.

?Connectors would add to the drop.
You could try 16 gauge lamp cord, too.
Or smaller wire (sprinkler?), and a 24 volt supply.

As to how to wire it up, the subject has been discussed a number of times on the forum.
?Once more recently in a thread authored by Pendragon, but I had trouble following his thinking at first.
Some other members have posted more simplified solutions.

 

[T4Runner]

Describing a sudden loss of all signal, especially when moving a motorized dish might indicate loss of connection at the ends of the RG6. What type of coax connectors are you using? I missed reading that info. If you mentioned it.


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[stanleyjohn]

hope you get your LNB working soon! Heres something for Kraven http://www.flickr.com/photos/90178889@N05/9431047018/

 

[cyberham]

Now can you imagine those critters rambling around like that in tall thick grass, in the dark, with mosquitoes biting...that's why I only venture to my dish in (bright) daylight.

I upgraded my microHD firmware so I could get the continuous motor movement. Although it seems I could use some new better cable, as of now, I have all satellies scanned in and I can operate normally with one exception. When motoring to the ends of the arc (15W and east, west of 103W), my dish is like an old man sitting down. It's easy to get down, but it's a struggle to get back up. So when my dish is moving back toward the higher elevations from the ends of the arc, I may need to electronically bump the dish a bit back and forth to get it to move properly. Maybe some commands are getting lost. I've developed a technique.

Bottom line is we should encourage everybody to get PLL LNBs. This device cost no more than a non-PLL, and I have found its performance is wonderful. In almost every case, my SQ on channels is higher perhaps because in many cases I had marginal signals. What's nice is this LNB seems to operate a little like AFC does on an FM radio. As long as the dish is quite near peak, this LNB grabs the transponder signal and you don't need to worry about peaking things much. Therefore USALS is fine to use; no point switching to DiSEqC mode to bump a little here and there (except to get Granpa Motor to move).