New HD subscriber, having second thoughts

[TheKrell]

I also have no idea what type of satellite they are going to use. They're probably going to use the two that are already outside. I have to have two for the Abilene, TX locals, or at least do until I get HD. Apparently, and correct me if I am wrong on this, but the Abilene locals come in on 61.5, along with the HD channels.

I just went to The List! (see tab at top) to view all Dish Network subscription channels for Abilene. Your SD locals are coming off 129, while your HD locals are coming off 61.5. Never heard of that bizarre combination before!

Right now, for SD, you don't actually need two dishes. You should have gotten a single 1000.2 which gives you 3 sats: 110/119/129. Since you have 2, I imagine you have a DPP twin on a Dish 500, and a 2nd Dish 300 (or another 500) for 129.

Here are my prognostications for what you'll wind up gettin once the installer gives you your HD locals. He will take down the 500 w/DPP twin and install a 1000.2 in it's place. (Should have been done already IMHO.) Then he'll swing your 2nd dish (called a "wing dish") around to point at 61.5 for your HD locals. The wing dish will get cabled to the 1000.2, which has one input and 3 outputs. So, after all that upgrading, you will have 3 DPP outputs to go to as many as 3 dual-tuner receivers.

This will all miraculously work, and you will be able to swap out your 322 at a later date very easily for either a 211, a 222, or a 612.

 

[olfenite]

Alright, the installer just left an hour ago, and there was some good news and bad news.

The good news, I have a 722k installed on one of the HDTVs and on one of the SDTVs. I have a 211 installed on the other HDTV. The other SDTV does not have anything on it right now.

I called Dish Network to let them know that I needed one more receiver, and he let me know that the technician would not even install it unless you had a HDTV where it was going. He also said to just wait on installing the 3rd receiver until I was ready because it would make the bill more expensive. It makes sense to do it that way.

Now for the bad news. I can't get the Abilene locals iin HD. He said that there were some pine trees blocking the view. He would not even try move the dish, which made me upset. He then informed me that the 211 is a "piece of junk", and that he would see me in 6 months when it needed to be repaired. He also did not replace either Dish. I still have two Dish 500's up there, so no Dish 1000.

This guy was very anti-HD. He said that all the HD channels are not worth it, it stretches the image incorrectly, and that I could get the same image from a s-video cable.

He then informed me that Dish Network did not send him an OTA module, and that I would have to call Dish Network to get them to send me one. After he left, he came back to my house and said that it was already in the box and that I was not picking up any signals because I did not have a digital antenna. I know he was wrong because first of all, the module just is not there. There is a plate screwed over where it should be. Furthermore, there isn't a place to screw in my cable that is coming from the antenna. Every input is being used. Lastly, my antenna is able to pick up digital channels. If it wasn't, then why am I able to watch locals with it?

He told me that I can't record any of the OTA channels to the DVR, and that it will not display the channels in HD. I highly doubt that either of those are true. I sure hope it isn't.

Anyway, I called Dish Network and informed them that they did not send the technician a OTA module. They looked over the order history and they said it was an error on their part. They're shipping it to me on 2-day via UPS.

I honestly wish I had the know how to do this myself. This technician is a jerk, and I've had problems with him before with threatening to shoot my dogs (which is something I already mentioned here before). This time he threatened it with a box cutter saying something along the lines of how he's eaten dog before and he'd eat it again.

Whatever the case, I got it working... somewhat. Really wish I could get the Abilene locals in HD, but he won't even try.

Thanks for the help everyone, you all been very helpful.

 

[TheKrell]

Well, that's quite the horror story. So many falsehoods out of that "technician", I hardly know where to begin. And the dog story is just beyond the pale; that guy needs better drugs!

OK, additional thoughts. If you are paying for your locals AND an HD pack, you are supposed to get the antenna(s) you need for free. I maintain this will require replacement of one of your Dish500's with a Dish 1000.2, which can see 110/119/129 with one dish. It also has an input for a wing dish, which should be the other of your Dish 500's swung around for 61.5. Plus it's internal switch has 3 DPP outputs, which should work quite nicely to feed current and future receivers.

I would call up Dish and "work" on them some more. Don't know how to get a different tech, though.

 

[olfenite]

Well, that's quite the horror story. So many falsehoods out of that "technician", I hardly know where to begin. And the dog story is just beyond the pale; that guy needs better drugs!

OK, additional thoughts. If you are paying for your locals AND an HD pack, you are supposed to get the antenna(s) you need for free. I maintain this will require replacement of one of your Dish500's with a Dish 1000.2, which can see 110/119/129 with one dish. It also has an input for a wing dish, which should be the other of your Dish 500's swung around for 61.5. Plus it's internal switch has 3 DPP outputs, which should work quite nicely to feed current and future receivers.

I would call up Dish and "work" on them some more. Don't know how to get a different tech, though.

Trust me, this guy didn't need more drugs. He just needs to get off the ones he is already on. Worst thing is I told the company he works for to not send him out again when a LNB burned out, and they assured me that they wouldn't, but they did.

He explained to get the satellite you would need to have a clear view of the northeast skies, which I admit, I don't have one. I have a dying tree and a bunch of tall pine trees. However, I looked on Satellite Finder / Dish Pointing Calculator with Google Maps | DishPointer.com (which I found here, btw, thanks for the address ), it says I need to point it southeast. While my Dish is on a pole in the back of my house, and the southeast would probably be blocked by the roof or some other trees, if I moved my Dish to the front of the house, it would have a virtually clear sky of the southeast. I quizzed him on which satellite it would be pointing to, and he did say 61.5, so I don't know. I'm going to go talk to another company that installs Dish Network, and maybe they'll be able to help.

I just figured it up on DishPointer, and I estimated for about ever foot I move from the Dish, I gain about .69 of a foot in clearance, which is roughly above 8 inches. If I'm correct, I have my Dishes on a 10 ft. pole, I should be able to get above any obstructions. Of course, this is all estimates, and I may be completely wrong how satellites work. I'm still new to all of this.

I really don't need the extra antennas though. I have a very good ota antenna that is picking up my digital stations. Just curious, but if it is able to pick up my digital stations, would that not make it a digital antenna? It is picking up both digital and analog signals. I mean, the thing is a UHF/VHF combo antenna, and it is huge.

Anyway, I absolutely want one of these 1000.2 dishes, but only if it will help me get the locals from Abilene from the Dish in HD. My ultimate goal is to be able to get Abilene from the Dish and San Angelo from the antenna. I'll hopefully have more answers once I talk to this other installer. Wish me luck.

 

[TheKrell]

Sorry; I meant my "drug" comment in jest.

Northeast skies! Hahaha! <sarcasm> Yeah, if you live in the Southern Hemisphere! </sarcasm> This is the best nonsense yet! I will admit that the "digital antenna" is a close second.

Your Abilene HD locals are on 61.5, so unless you have a dish pointed there, you won't get HD locals. Your SD locals seem to be on 129, why I don't know. So that's why you want a 1000.2 as well as a wing dish on 61.5 for 4 satellite locations at once. If you don't care about your SD locals, then you don't really need a 1000.2, as opposed to what you've got now (with wing dish repointed to 61.5) and a switch such as the DPP33.

Indeed you are right about your antenna. Your old combo UHF/VHF OTA antenna will work fine and dandy for digital, since the RF signal itself is actually still analog just like it has been for the last 50 years. Unscrupulous dealers relabel a pair of rabbit ears "HDTV" and try to charge more for it.

 

[olfenite]

Hi again, sorry for bringing up an old post, but I just wanted to report one last time on my situation.

Wednesday, I called a local Dish contractor (not the one that installed the HD), and confirmed that 61.5 does not come out of the northeast. I asked if their installers would come and take a look at it, but they said that I really should try to use the ones I had install. So they gave me the local phone number in San Angelo, TX, not the 800 number for the installer.

So I call the local number, and tell them why I don't want that one certain installer to come out again. The woman I talked to even confirmed with me again that 61.5 is not in the northeast. She tells me to call the 800 number, schedule a work order, and call back on after it is ordered as well as the day before I have the work done.

I scheduled it for today, and called yesterday to make sure that they are not sending out the technician. They confirm this.

Today, the technician comes out. He gets out his ladder and moves one of the dishes to 61.5, which was pointing almost east. He tells me that the elevation is 37 degrees. The process takes less than 5 minutes. It took longer for the other installer to explain why I could not get HD Abilene locals than it took to move the dish.

He then tells me that even if the satellite would had needed to be pointing northeast, it would have had enough clear skies to clear any trees.

And with that said, I a now getting my local HDs from Abilene.

Crazy thing is he told me that he is contracted through Abilene, not San Angelo, which is the office I called. The other crazy thing is that I STILL do not have a Dish 1000.2. He just swung the wing dish which was picking up 129 over to 61.5. Right now I am getting 61.5, 110, and 119. I am not getting my locals in standard def. anymore, but they were on 129. It isn't a problem either seeing how it formats the picture just nicely on the SDTV. There doesn't seem to be a problem. I hope this won't be an issue once we decide to add the 3rd HD receiver.

I just want to thank you guys here at satelliteguys.us for all the help you offered. Had I not found you guys, I probably would had accepted the fact that 61.5 is unobtainable, would had bought a "digital" antenna, and probably got a receiver I would not be satisfied with. You guys are awesome.

I'll see you around. Thanks again!

 

[TheKrell]

Ha! Congratulations; you finally got a competent installer. And I'll bet your dog is still healthy and happy as well.

I would blame Dish for the lack of a 1000.2 replacement. It should have been on the original work order IMHO. I don't know how they get away with that, since it definitely limits what you can do both now and in the future. As for additional receivers, if it's an SD receiver you'll definitely not be getting your locals. Forgive me but I don't remember. Do you have any switch other than what's inside the DPP twin? If not, then 2 receivers is the limit. Any more, and you'll need a DPP33 for 3 receivers or a DPP44 for 4. (A 1000.2 could have fed 3 receivers.)

 

[olfenite]

Ha! Congratulations; you finally got a competent installer. And I'll bet your dog is still healthy and happy as well.

I would blame Dish for the lack of a 1000.2 replacement. It should have been on the original work order IMHO. I don't know how they get away with that, since it definitely limits what you can do both now and in the future. As for additional receivers, if it's an SD receiver you'll definitely not be getting your locals. Forgive me but I don't remember. Do you have any switch other than what's inside the DPP twin? If not, then 2 receivers is the limit. Any more, and you'll need a DPP33 for 3 receivers or a DPP44 for 4. (A 1000.2 could have fed 3 receivers.)

What are the now and future things that I might miss out on?

Fortunately, when I add the third receiver, it will be a HDTV, so I'm not concerned about receiving the SD versions of my locals anymore.

As for switches, I wouldn't be able to tell you. I don't even know what a DPP twin is to tell you the truth. I can tell you that the wiring for my televisions has been the same since the Primestar days, I've been a Dish Network subscriber for 3.5 years, and neither dishes have been replaced since then. That might be able to tell you what DPP thingy I have.

I'm hoping that when it comes time to get the third receiver that they'll send a dish 1000.2. If they don't, I'll leave it up to them to figure out how to get the third receiver its signal.

Actually, when it does happen, I hope it is the incompetent technician that installs it. I want him to see that the junk "non-digital" antenna is bringing in my digital channels and that I'm on 61.5.

Here's a list that he's been wrong about so far:
1) The direction of 61.5
2) "Digital antenna" required
3) The over-the-air module was for a pass through only so you could use a 722k on channel 3 or 4
4) Told me to wire my over the air antenna into a splitter with satellite 2 instead of using an over the air module to get my local channels (may be true, but have not found anything to support it.)
5) Told me that I could record television onto an external hard drive and transfer it to my computer (this he may be right about, but again, I doubt it and I can't find any supporting article that says it is true)
6) Just general business practice. Saying he's going to shoot my dog, won't even try to get 61.5, just being an overall jerk.

Now that I think of it, I feel sorry for the other people who wanted their locals in the area. He kept on saying how no one is able to get 61.5 in this area. It's no wonder why, he was pointing it in the entirely wrong direction. The guy needs to go brush up on his installing techniques.

 

[TheKrell]

I predict you won't be teaching that dunderhead installer anything.

What you're missing are two things that a 1000.2 would have given you: the 129 satellite location and a built-in switch. If you were to buy or lease another SD receiver, you would not get your SD locals. Also, I imagine you have more SD locals than HD locals at this point in time. So even with an HD receiver you won't be getting those extra locals via Dish.

To find out what switch you have now, use the Menu 6-1-3 and read the device line. It should say what it's connected to, and I'll bet it's a dpp twin.

 

[olfenite]

Unfortunately, I don't think the incompetent installer is going anywhere. He kept on saying he been doing it for years, and I don't think he is going to get fired over one customer's complaint. Now, if people didn't believe what he said and went out to research if he was right or not like I did, then yeah, he probably would be fired. Too many people are more like "oh darn" and move on either unsatisfied or to Directv. On top of that, living in the country and a high senior population, HD isn't exactly popular here just yet, so 61.5 isn't used much at all. I know of only two other people in my community that have Dish Network, and neither of them use HD. They just use the most basic equipment as well, no DVR, no ota modules, nothing.

If the local channel isn't available in HD, I am still getting it in SD from 61.5. The local FOX affiliate (KXVA) is the only major network not in HD. There is a Spanish channel, a gospel channel, and some sort of channel that shows syndicated shows all day and paid programming all night. But like I said, they're all still coming in even though it is on 61.5. The only thing that I've noticed that is different is what has already been mentioned around the boards, like fewer HD PPV channels. That is alright though, I'd prefer to rent the blu-ray anyway.

You're right about it being a DPP Twin. So what I plan to do is when I am ready to install a third HD receiver, I'll request that they send a Dish 1000.2 as well. Do I need to ask for a DPP33 or DPP44 also, or will they know I need something else instead of the DPP Twin right away?

Also, what receiver should I ask for when I want the 3rd HD receiver? I'm guessing a 211 or a 211k, but the features I want is a single output and an external hard drive so I can avoid paying $5 a month for the DVR on that receiver.

Lastly, is a 250 gb external hard drive big enough for a HD receiver? I don't do a whole lot of recording, but I want the rewind/fast forward/pause features.

 

[NoBoB]

IIRC, the 622 shipped with a 320GB drive back when HD was MPEG2, so 250GB with MPEG4 is probably adequate, especially if you won't record much, as you've said.

The good thing about the externals is that you can always buy a bigger one should your requirements change.

 

[TheKrell]

You're getting SD locals for Abilene from 61.5? I just checked The List again, and you are right. There are mpeg4 SD locals thereon, just as though you were an Eastern Arc customer. Oh... Just checked that too, and Abilene-Sweetwater is an Eastern Arc DMA. This means you can get by with a single 1000.4 dish, and not two as you have now. It simultaneously views 61.5, 72, and 77 deg satellite locations.

With either a 1000.2 or 1000.4 dish, you will not need an external switch to feed 3 receivers. The mystery of why you didn't get a 1000.4 dish deepens. I thought Dish wanted to convert all their EA-capable DMAs to EA, as part of their planned migration away from mpeg-2.

As for receivers, your only options right now to avoid the DVR fee are either the 211 or 211k. In the future, a 222 or 222k dual tuner receiver would also work.

 

[olfenite]

Well, we'll probably get a 211k then. If I get a 222 or any dual tuner, it means I'll have five tuners, which isn't necessary and on top of that, they'll charge me a lot more for it. Or I guess they will, each representative I talk to seems to have a different story.

As far as Eastern Arc DMA, DMA to EA, EA-capable DMA, and mpeg-2... I have no idea what you just said, haha. This is exactly the reason why I called Dish Network to install my equipment. What'll probably happen is that I'll get a phone call in a few months asking me to install a new dish.

It is strange though, when I talked to a local installer (who I trust and believe. I wanted to use him instead of these other guys, but he told me that Dish Network would be able to offer a better deal on equipment, but I digress.), he said that I would likely need a 1000.2 while a second dish pointed at 61.5. Is this 1000.4 something new or just an idea that has not been thought of by these installers? I know that the Abilene HD channels have not been available for a real long time, so maybe they're so familiar with using 110, 119 for the national programing and 129 for the local programming, while 61.5 local HD programming,

Oh, by the way, something I wanted to mention a while back but forgot to do so... I went to dishpointer.com again, and I looked at the way to point the dish. It showed nearly southeast, but the installer has the dish nearly pointing due east, just ever so slightly to the south. I thought that was strange, but didn't say anything since it was coming in. I did ask him if he needed to put up a dish 1000, but said it wasn't needed, which is obviously why he didn't put it up.

What would you recommend that I ask Dish Network when I want to add the third receiver? When I call 800-333-dish, will they know that I have a DPP Twin and automatically realize it needs to be upgraded? Or do I ask for a Dish 1000? I'll leave it up to them if they want to put up a 1000.2 or a 1000.4, it really doesn't matter how many satellites there are as long as it works. I've got so much stuff on my roof now days that it doesn't bother me anymore, and because I live in the sticks, it doesn't bother any of the neighbors either.

 

[Kevinw]

A....
And can I just order a 211 or 211k off of ebay and install it myself? What experiences has anyone had on ebay? It would be nice if I could, it would save me a load of money. Is it as simple as removing the old standard duo receiver, screwing in the cables into the 211, and activating it? Where can I get the information in what goes into the process?

....

I got a new 211of Ebay for less than 150. I had it hooked up in minutes and and full activated within 20 minutes. I had a Tech help with getting the remote to work.

 

[sprintcarcrazy]

I have a couple extra 211's, just PM me and we can work something out.

 

[TheKrell]

The old/original single-dish Western Arc (110/119/129) solution is the 1000.2. The new/different single-dish Eastern Arc (77/72/61.5) solution is the 1000.4. I believe Abilene, TX is in the enviable position of having either "arc" workable for now, depending upon customer preference, Dish policies, or available line-of-sight to the satellites. How long Abilene will be on both arcs is anybody's guess. Both a 1000.2 and a 1000.4 have 3 outputs suitable for 3 dual-tuner receivers, so there is no need for an external switch.

One wrinkle is that only VIP HD receivers (and the 411) will work on Eastern Arc. So, if you have any standard def receivers still active on your account, you would need a 1000.2. If none, then a 1000.4 has some advantages, such as better alignment hardware, and the fact that mpeg-4 SD channels will consume less space on your DVRs.

If you really don't care one way or the other about single-dish solutions (and my familiy doesn't either), then don't sweat it. I might have expected Dish to future-proof your installation by installing either a 1000.2 or 1000.4, but obviously they're saving a little cash and didn't offer either one. Now, when you add a 3rd receiver, you will probably need an installer to come out either to do the dish upgrade they should have done already, or else add an external switch such as the DPP33. I predict they'll offer the DPP33, but I have no idea what Dish policies are regarding dish upgrades vis a vis switches.

Like you, I have had problems with Dish subcontractors. After 4 trips, I gave up and decided I would never be satisfied unless I did it right myself. I personally don't find grey dish antennas on my grey roof objectionable. But I positively loath the usual practice of draping big black cables every which way over my house! Grey roof, grey antennas, grey house paint... Call me picky, but I want grey cables. I want my switch gear in my attic, not dangling off the edge of my roof by the cables. (One of my neighbors had that done to his house.) And I really hate those external cable runs; I did it all through the walls from my attic or basement. I'm pretty sure no Dish contractor would ever go to so much trouble just for neatness. Yes, you could hire your own contractor to do that, but it will cost you.

 

[AlanRB]

Hi TheKrell:

A very interesting thread. I do not want to hijack it but it appears to be solved for now. Your contributions were very much appreciated. I learned more from this discussion than many others so far. I hope that you can help me as many questions came to mind in reading it.

Currently desiring to switch from Comcast to Dish. I know zilch about satellite in general. So please bear with me.

One claification please, in one of olfenite’s posts he indicated that the installer would refuse to install a VIP211 in a room with only a SDTV even though he would be installing an HDTV soon? Is that Dish’s policy? The reason I ask is that I am in a similar position. I will be installing additional HDTV’s but I want the hardware in place on the initial install so that all I have to do is hook them up. Plus another individual posted elsewhere that Dish will only allow one hardware change within a twelve month period. Even more reason to proceed slowly and get all my i’s dotted ant t’s crossed up front.

Also what dish should I get (1000.2?), will it need a wing dish?

If I am reading ‘The List’ above correctly (using KUSA as an example) it shows SDTV on 119, MPEG HDTV on 129, and MPEG2 on 110. Does that mean I should get a 1000.2 dish?

Programming: I plan to subscribe to Gold Classic 250 w/GoldHD (along with all of the other promotional freebies).

Hardware: VIP722k, #1 - HDTV in family room, #2 – SDTV –in basement
VIP222k, #1 – (Future HDTV in bedroom) now only SDTV; #2 nothing
VIP222k, #1 – HDTV in office, #2 nothing

Now I know that VIP211’s will work but I would like to have the dual tuner capability for PIP.

Which brings me to another question on the hardware. Are the ‘k’ versions better 722k, 211k, 222k than the non k versions?

I also want to install external hard drives on the 222k’s, but you indicated that this was not supported yet? Why so on the 211k, as they both have the USB port? Any idea when?

Any other points that I need to consider before proceeding?

Thanks,

Alan

 

[IIP]

Alan,

Dish installers generally won't install an HD receiver without an HDTV present, because if you then get an HDTV and, for ANY reason, call Dish with a problem, the installer will get hit with a Trouble Call and likely a chargeback. And without an HDTV, the installer can't configure the receiver for proper HD setup, nor can he ensure that the HD outputs are working properly. So, if he agrees to do it anyway, he's taking all that liability on himself.

It may sound dumb, but I get TCs all the time for customers who bought a new TV and can't figure out how to get it installed/connected/programmed correctly. Those TCs negatively affect my ranking (which affects the routing order, and therefore my income) and often result in no pay or even a chargeback. Sometimes I can get them reversed, but not always, and it's a long, tedious process.

 

[TheKrell]

Welcome! And thanks. Now where's the emoticon for "aw.. shucks?"

Recommend borrowing an HDTV for the install. As for selecting the right antenna, just order service for 3 HDTVs and you will get whatever is appropriate for your locale. For more customized help, tell us which DMA or zip code you're in.

The k versions of these receivers are newer. The 211k is smaller and black. Other than that, it's just another 211. The 722k and 222k, on the other hand, are not only black but come without any OTA ATSC tuner! Instead there is an extra cost ($30) dual OTA tuner module that slides in the back. If you want to view or record 2 OTA programs simultaneously, then the k model is for you.

Sorry, I'm just an interested customer. I have no date on the DVR conversion of 222 or 222k receivers. Could be next week. Could be next year.

 

[AlanRB]

Thanks IIP and TheKrell,

Well, I have a solution to have a couple of HDTV's present should that then be necessary. But as far as the callbacks how hard is it to plug in an HDMI cable into a black box & TV and select the proper input? But i know that coming from the compter industry no one reads manuals anymore.

I am in zip code 80112. Any help would be much appreciated. Also is there some good recommended articles to read?

On the subject will DISH install a 722k and two 222k's? as that is technically design ed for up to 3 HDTV's and 3 SDTV's. I really prefer the dual tuners of the 222k's.

Thanks.