Nice to see the new HD channels are on

[drdroo]

Just think if Dish would convert the adult paid channels to HD quality. You'll be in heaven. hehe

It's not really an adult movie without the haze and shaky handycam look. In HD or using studio cameras we call it a 'movie on Cinemax'.

 

[8bitbytes]

Actually you clearly have never done so, because it certainly is.

No, 1440x1080 is not HD. It might be marketed as such and you might be able to produce something that says it is used for 4:3 format at 1080 lines but it's not HD.


It might be fine for viewing and most people will never know the difference, but that is not the question here.

 

[drdroo]

1280x720 is considered HD, why wouldn't 1440x1080?

High-definition television - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[8bitbytes]

1280x720 is considered HD, why wouldn't 1440x1080?

High-definition television - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nowhere on your reference page and nowhere anywhere is 1440x1080 listed as a standard resolution accepted by ATSC Committee into the standard or by SMPTE as an HD resolution. It's NOT the standard, that's the point here.

Now, it is a compromise based on bandwidth and technical limitations that once existed, and it is a higher definition resolution that satellite broadcasters are using today.

BUT:

Go look at that graphic on your link again. 1440 x 1080 is not on it.

The standard says that for 1080 lines of resolution, the horizontal spec is 1920. 1440 is a compromise and is USED for HD broadcasts and recordings, but, it is not the standard. That's why many have come to call it HD-Lite, since it is used but is not a specified standard.

Just because the label says Gucci doesn't mean it is.

I'm sure there are things in your life where you do not accept a watered down version as authentic. You just don't on this subject, and that is up to you.

 

[mdonnelly]

1280x720 is considered HD, why wouldn't 1440x1080?

High-definition television - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe because that's 720p vs. 1080i?

 

[Peter Parker]

Yes but 1440 x 1080 is still HD---kust not full 1080i

 

[drdroo]

Nowhere on your reference page and nowhere anywhere is 1440x1080 listed as a standard resolution accepted by ATSC Committee into the standard or by SMPTE as an HD resolution. It's NOT the standard, that's the point here.

My point is that it's between two HD standard resolutions. If the gas standard for the car is "89 or 93 octane" then odds are 91 is acceptable too, since it sits between.

I'm sure there are things in your life where you do not accept a watered down version as authentic. You just don't on this subject, and that is up to you.

Yknow. If you're going to be this bitter, I suggest you shoot a laser pointer in your eyes to degrade them to the point that you can be remotely happy. It's like with the people who claim they can only tolerate sound from 3000$ CD players. I'd go to a Heavy Metal concert and sit in the front row in hopes to be able to be happy about innovatins such as satellite radio.

I accept what the carrier gives me. If it were a problem, I'd switch away instead of the incessant whining and belittling of other peoples thoughts and opinions on the topic here.

You must be a blast to be around. "The Wine is 5 degrees warmer from being chilled. My steak is not medium rare, it's rare/medium rare. And lastly, Wife, only hookers wear lipstick."

 

[drdroo]

Yes but 1440 x 1080 is still HD---kust not full 1080i

It sits between 1280x720 and 1920x1080 on the graphic on the Wikipedia entry. If 1280x720 is HD, and 1920x1080 (2073600 pixels) is HD, then 1440x1080 certainly should be considered HD. It certainly isn't 480i or 480p.

Could it be better? Sure things always could be better. But when (as been pointed out in the past) the vast majority of people are not using a 60" 1080p plasma, or the fact many DLPs that people own are 720p (actual, even if they have a 1080i input mode), We won't even get into that travesty known as Light Beer Plasmas (1024x768) that even brand name vendors sell.

I don't think people realize that it's about catering to the most people. I do think these bitter individuals would be happier with losing or never having several channels in HD if it meant that some crap channel was in 1080i.

I saw that kind of nonsense over at Sirius Backstage too. Some people'd rather have 10 channels in super high fidelity. Of course, everyone wants to pick WHICH channels those are....

 

[8bitbytes]

Yknow. If you're going to be this bitter, I suggest you shoot a laser pointer in your eyes to degrade them to the point that you can be remotely happy. It's like with the people who claim they can only tolerate sound from 3000$ CD players. I'd go to a Heavy Metal concert and sit in the front row in hopes to be able to be happy about innovatins such as satellite radio.

I accept what the carrier gives me. If it were a problem, I'd switch away instead of the incessant whining and belittling of other peoples thoughts and opinions on the topic here.

You must be a blast to be around. "The Wine is 5 degrees warmer from being chilled. My steak is not medium rare, it's rare/medium rare. And lastly, Wife, only hookers wear lipstick."

Y'Know, if you are going to make assumptions about people because they don't agee with you, you might be surprised to find out they are nothing like your insults and personal attacks tend to indicate.

I am not bitter, negative, whining, or belittling anyone and my wife is not a hooker.

The STANDARD SAYS... It doesn't matter what marketing or even you say.

I have said several times now that I don't have a problem with that resolution and am fine with watching it. Go back and read the conversation again and understand the context of the discussion, not your attitude toward anyone who doesn't agree with you.

 

[drdroo]

I am not bitter, negative, whining, or belittling anyone and my wife is not a hooker.

I never suggested she was!. Perhaps you should reread what I said. I inferred that you must be pedantic purely because of your attitude on this topic and unwillingness to believe that there may be other skews.

The standard doesn't say HD is 1024x768 but yet there are "HD Plasmas" out there being sold as such. HD is higher than SD by design. 1440x1080 most definitely is not SD, so it must be HD, especially since it sits between two HD res's.

The concept of 'standard' has been killed, largely by this marketing and companies you speak of. Otherwise they would've gotten it right the FIRST time. Instead we have 720p, 480p, 1080i, 1080p, then we have the XGA based Plasmas, etc.

The problem is bigger than Dish Network.

 

[8bitbytes]

It sits between 1280x720 and 1920x1080 on the graphic on the Wikipedia entry. If 1280x720 is HD, and 1920x1080 (2073600 pixels) is HD, then 1440x1080 certainly should be considered HD. It certainly isn't 480i or 480p.

I certainly do agree that it is HD quality, it just isn't standards compliant.

It came about mainly due to bandwidth and protocol restrictions that would have prevented any broadcast at 1080 lines of resolution. So, it could be considered a solution to the problems that existed at that time. Now that those days are gone, it would be nice if the broadcasts were rasied to the level of the standard originally set for 1080 lines like OTA does now. I understand that there is an expense involved and issues to still be resolved so I don't mind waiting. Even ABC/ESPN and Fox are working on bringing their transmissions from 720p up to 1080i so progress is always being made.

It's definitely much better than the days of SD, to be sure!

 

[drdroo]

I certainly do agree that it is HD quality, it just isn't standards compliant.

That I agree with, absolutely.

I understand that there is an expense involved and issues to still be resolved so I don't mind waiting. Even ABC/ESPN and Fox are working on bringing their transmissions from 720p up to 1080i so progress is always being made.

ABC and FOX are run by the same place here. ABC is too cheap/lazy to get Nascar in HD, so they simulcast a ESPN SD feed for races.

Our FOX affil is in 480i, which means it looks better than analog rabbit ears, but it also means football isn't in HD. Since FOX has most of the games, this is a pretty big disappointment.

Both FOX and ABC should raise the standard for their affils as well as internally.

It'll be a colder day in hell before we'll get HD over the dish here. D* doesn't even have our locals and E* just added them in Dec. Since I get HD OTA here and most of the time things aren't in HD, I wouldn't want to waste the Satellite Space anyway

 

[Voyager6]

I never suggested she was!. Perhaps you should reread what I said. I inferred that you must be pedantic purely because of your attitude on this topic and unwillingness to believe that there may be other skews.

The standard doesn't say HD is 1024x768 but yet there are "HD Plasmas" out there being sold as such. HD is higher than SD by design. 1440x1080 most definitely is not SD, so it must be HD, especially since it sits between two HD res's.

Any set that cannot display 1280X720P or 1920X1080I or P should be labeled as Enhanced Definition (ED).

HD requires an aspect ratio of 16:9. The 1440X1080i and 1220X1080i formats DO NOT have the required 16:9 aspect ratio to be labeled as HD. 1440X1080i and 1220X1080i may be accepted "broadcast standards" but they do not meet the ATSC HD standard.

 

[8bitbytes]

I never suggested she was!...

yet there are "HD Plasmas" out there being sold as such...

The concept of 'standard' has been killed, largely by this marketing and companies you speak of...


The problem is bigger than Dish Network...

Sure you did - you said, "You must be..."

Yes, and mail in your mailbox has been known to say "YOU'VE WON!!!" but that doesn't make it so. Look again, those "HD" tvs have fine print.

Standards are never killed, just ignored. Welcome to the post-modern age where every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

You are correct, the problem is pervasive, global, and mostly ignored.

I am not presenting myself as an enforcer of standards, but I will spend some time occasionally reminding folks that they exist and most of the time for good reason. It's some what like the folks who will request grammar corrections from time to time. There's no harm in trying to help maintain a goal of keeping things as correct as possible, within the limits of reality.

 

[drdroo]

Any set that cannot display 1280X720P or 1920X1080I or P should be labeled as Enhanced Definition (ED).

Absolutely, but these companies aren't going to put a giant decal on their stuff saying "Guess what, it's junk!"

 

[drdroo]

Yes, and mail in your mailbox has been known to say "YOU'VE WON!!!" but that doesn't make it so. Look again, those "HD" tvs have fine print.

That Fine Print is anti-consumer. The standard should say you can never call a TV a HDTV unless

• . However, instead HDTV has been 'anything with higher resolution than SDTV', at least until they threw the term EDTV in there.
  
  

  Standards are never killed, just ignored. Welcome to the post-modern age where every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

  
  I'd not want to kill a standard, just want to have a standard be a standard (which seems to be what you want too). It used to be that a standard was defined and then that was it. Now instead there are different skews of the same standard because everyone thinks they have the 'better way'. There's several instances in recent years of this nonsense, but the idea goes back to when US Robotics made a 28800 V.FC based modem that wasn't compatible with V.FC from Hayes and other vendors, because they thought their implementation was better....
  
  I bought a HDTV purely because I wanted at least 1 HDTV here. However, I can certainly appreciate the fact that people end up with their head spinning off their heads in making decisions buying one. My neighbor's solution was to buy one on sale and then ask if it was good, she lucked out.
  
  

  I am not presenting myself as an enforcer of standards, but I will spend some time occasionally reminding folks that they exist and most of the time for good reason. It's some what like the folks who will request grammar corrections from time to time. There's no harm in trying to help maintain a goal of keeping things as correct as possible, within the limits of reality.

  
  Unfortunately since the standard wasn't upheld back when the whole HDTV situation started, It'll give more opportunity to fracture it in other places.
  
  I think Dish will end up doing right when they can get all their launches sorted out and shuffle things around. Unfortunately people have lofty expectations of DirecTV (since they're advertising capacity (better known as air)) and I think that put the heat to DN some.

 

[8bitbytes]

Admittedly, standards don't stand a chance against marketing! Money is the bottom line on all of these issues: They want our money and they want it as cheaply as they can get it!

Thanks for batting this ball back and forth with me - I appreciate your discussion!

 

[drdroo]

I just hope one of these days the consumers say "We've had enough of this, you figure out the standard and we'll go with it".

I do like a good discussion. I apologize for the quick assumption that you're one of the several here that gets sick to their stomach when they turn on DishHD because it isn't in 1920x1080.

EDIT: Shuttle's headed down, should be on the ground in the next half hour. Are they still doing HD coverage over on HDNet? I think they did that once at one point.

EDIT (2): Looks like yes, HDNet is still doing Shuttle coverage in HD. That'll be good for future Shuttle events once I get my 722...

 

[kstuart]

But, if you check the standard, 1440x1080 is not HD. Just because you can throw out mpeg2 mpeg4 like you even know how broadcasting works doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

Welcome to the real world:

High definition video has been with us for a few years now, but at this point, all of the consumer high def video cameras either record 720p or 1080i, and are called HDV. These HDV cameras will record both high definition (HD) and standard definition (DV), thus the HDV designation.
HDV cameras that record 1080i process and store the data at 1,440 x 1,080, not 1,920 x 1,080. In the case of HD, the image is captured at 1,920 x 1,080, then converted to 1,440 x 1,080 for the processing and storage on tape as an ATSC video. In the case of DV, the image is captured directly from the 1,440 x 1,080 pixels on the sensor, processed, scaled to lower resolution, and output to tape as an NTSC video. Therefore, since both HD and DV data are 1,440 x 1,080 to start with (which is a 4:3 aspect ratio), this allows most of the camera's circuitry to be used for both formats, and reduces the cost of the camera significantly.
Even the ProSumer cameras ($4,000 up to about $10,000) are 1,440 x 1,080 and many television studios use them for their HD broadcasts, since full HD resolution (1,920 x 1,080) studio cameras are about $30,000 or more. Studios often need several dozen video cameras, so buying 50 cameras at $5,000 each is a lot more affordable than 50 at $30,000 each. The ProSumer cameras have three sensors instead of one, and other features like Genlock control, as well as a higher quality lens (usually interchangeable with other optional lenses).
The Canon HV10 is a consumer HDV camera, with 1,440 x 1,080 resolution, and one 1,920 x 1,080 sensor. However, it can record higher resolution in its still picture mode, although that feature is really just a convenience.

and here is the standard:

HDV Format Key Characteristics

1) Ability to record and play back high-definition video on internationally accepted DV format cassette tapes

2) Adoption of 720p/1080i formats to comply with progressive and interlace specifications for high- definition recording and playback. The HDV format complies with both the 720 scanning lines (progressive)/1280 horizontal pixels 720p format (60p, 30p, 50p, 25p), and the 1080 scanning lines (interlace)/1440 horizontal pixels 1080i format (60i, 50i). This ensures the recording and playback of high-resolution video for the high-definition era.

A quote from AVS applies:

Much of what makes an image appear sharp is not in the highest frequencies but more in the upper mids. This was not only true for SD, but even more for HD as optical losses become more part of the total resolution limitation. It's more important to stay flat through the mids to upper mids than the absolute cutoff point for resolution. Many rave about the high quality of series on the Discovery Channel, but they are using HDCAM standard which limits the resolution to 1440x1080i.

 

[8bitbytes]

and here is the standard:

That's not the HD standard as set forth by the ATSC, that's HDV which was created at a time when bandwidth and protocol limitations dictated that 1440 was going to be the only was to get 1080i out the door.

Those days are finally past and neither limitation exists anymore. There are several 1920x1080 camcorders/video cameras now available and with Red One (Red / RED ONE) coming on strong, ever higher definition, can we say UHD?, will be affordable soon.

1440 was a bandaid, not a standard. It's time to remove the bandaid!