Now, don't laugh...help me pull in OTA FOX

[120inna55]

In preparing for the potential loss of my FOX LiL (KDFW 4.1) via DISH (due to contract dispute), I swung my antenna around to the DFW area.

Now, don't laugh...

My coax comes straight into my house from an antenna mounted on a 50' tower. I'm guessing the coax travels another 30' before it actually penetrates the wall. This coax connects to an old amp with only 1 output. From that output another coax goes to a cheap FM amp/splitter purchased at Walmart that has two outputs. From here, one coax goes to a DISH receiver; one goes to a plain splitter dividing between my other DISH receiver and my AV tuner.

This was all done in 1997.

With this setup, I've been able to enjoy excellent FM reception on my AV tuner and pretty decent OTA (now digital, of course) out of East Texas. (I'm in Athens, TX, but my DMA is DFW). So, my DFW networks are provided via DISH. I only go to my East Texas networks during inclement weather for the radar. I've never been able to consistently pull in 51 (KFXK) for Fox--I don't know why, and I don't care. I prefer KDFW for my morning news.

The obvious problem is that I'm splitting the hell outta my signal which hasn't been a problem until I swing the antennas around to DFW (~75 miles away). I get marginal signal strength high 50's to low 60's. I eliminated everything after the indoor amp and took coax straight to one of my DISH receivers and got more stable signals being high 70's to 80's.

Obviously, this solution eliminates my OTA access on my other DISH receiver and my FM reception on my AV tuner. All 3 of these components are within the same cabinet serving 1 TV.

Of course, now I know that with a simple cable redirect, I can receive a stable FOX reception in the event it gets pulled from DISH (an action I believe will be brief---if it happens at all---but I couldn't risk losing Fringe and Bones which are two of my wife's favorite programs.)

But for a long-term solution, should I just replace my amp with one having more outputs. Is there one with 3 outputs that won't attenuate my signal?

I appreciate the help!

EDIT: Reviewing my original receipt from 1997, the UHF/VHF antenna is a CM3649. There is also a single-channel antenna that is listed on my original receipt as a "Channel 7 antenna" (remember this was in 1997) that was intended to pull in KLTV out of Tyler. The single-channel antenna looks exactly like this. The coax's from each of these antennae are joined via a box mounted between the two masts such that there is only one coax trailing down the 50' tower.

The pre-amp with only 1 output is a "PERMACOLOR 10G205C". The splitter/amp following that is a "Recoton 10db signal amplifier".

 

[boba]

TV fool shows Athens as 70.7 miles from Cedar Hill broadcast towers. That puts you as 9-10 miles further out than I am. I am ussing a CM 4668 UHF antenna amplifird by a TA 36 Pico Macom amplifier. That amp has a single output that is split for 10 tuners. On a DISH VIP612 ch 4 is delivering 96-100% under clear skys.

I would replace your amps with a TA-36 or a good Winegard or Channel Master pre amp.and then probably a 4 way splitter from your description.

 

[boba]

Remember ch35 is the actual broadcast channel for the digital 4.1. The TA36 can be added easier than a pre amp with a 50' tower

 

[120inna55]

...I would replace your amps with a TA-36 or a good Winegard or Channel Master pre amp.and then probably a 4 way splitter from your description.

I eliminated the second "amp", and just put a two-way splitter (all I had laying around) just off the initial amp. I noticed NO degradation in signal strength. I suppose buying a three-way splitter, which would supply everything (2 STB's and 1 FM tuner) would make little difference as well.

Yep, the second "amp" was trashing my signal.

...That amp has a single output that is split for 10 tuners.

It's a single output, but split 10 times? What did you use to split 10 times?

I guess I'm still thinking in terms of the old days when you degraded your signal every time you split it.

 

[120inna55]

Remember ch35 is the actual broadcast channel for the digital 4.1. The TA36 can be added easier than a pre amp with a 50' tower

I'm ignorant to all this, please explain.

Is a "pre amp" near the actual antenna and the "amp" is near the terminal?

If you're suggesting that I have anything near the masts, I do not, nor do I intend to because getting power there would be a nightmare.

If a three-way splitter placed after my amp (or whatever the single-output PERMACOLOR 10G205C that is inside my home is) will not degrade my signal, I'm pretty sure I'm all set.

I'm pulling in 27.1 (36) & 33.1 (32) in the 90's with 4.1 (35), 5.1 (41), and 8.1 (8) in the high 70's to high 80's. All these DFW networks towers are in the same general direction (as opposed to the scattering in the Tyler DMA). To optimize 4.1, maybe I need to swing the antenna back a few degrees. Climbing this 50' tower to turn the antenna with a pipe wrench is giving my arms a workout. I mean they are on fire!

 

[Jim5506]

The pre-amp is a module mounted near the antenna to amplify the signal before any noise or static is introduced in the coax.

Power to that pre-amp is supplied from a DC injector back near the TV (no splitters between injector and pre-amp) so power is not a problem.

Each time you split the signal you cut signal strength in half, so split it as few times as possible. Take a close look at the 3 way splitter, most of them are essentially a single box with 2 two-way splitters inside. This means one output will be -3.5 dB (1/2 signal) but the other 2 will be -7 (1/4 signal). There is another balanced splitter out there that has all three outputting at about -5 dB.

Your Permacolor amplifier has gain of 28dB VHF/24dB UHF. Noise levels are 3.5dB VHF/4.3dB UHF. Newer preamps are just a little better but probably not worth replacing. It is the type with a pre-amp that goes near the antenna and an injector for inside to send power up the coax.

I'd put the Permacolor pre-amp at the antenna (if it's not already there) and the injector before your splitter, you might more stable reception.

KDFW is about 288 degrees magnetic from you and the other two are about 290 degrees magnetic, so unless you are off to the right side and just beginning to peak the antenna for the cedar hill tower farm, I'm not sure moving the antenna would help much. If I turned it I'd turn it a bit west.

 

[120inna55]

The pre-amp is a module mounted near the antenna to amplify the signal before any noise or static is introduced in the coax.

Power to that pre-amp is supplied from a DC injector back near the TV (no splitters between injector and pre-amp) so power is not a problem...

...the UHF/VHF antenna is a CM3649. There is also a single-channel antenna that is listed on my original receipt as a "Channel 7 antenna" (remember this was in 1997) that was intended to pull in KLTV out of Tyler. The single-channel antenna looks exactly like this. The coax's from each of these antennae are joined via a box mounted between the two masts such that there is only one coax trailing down the 50' tower.

The pre-amp with only 1 output is a "PERMACOLOR 10G205C". The splitter/amp following that is a "Recoton 10db signal amplifier".

Perhaps the box joining the VHF single-channel antenna and the bigger CM3649 is actually a pre-amp and the PERMACOLOR 10G205C in the house is the power injector to which you are referring. Maybe I have a pre-amp after all?

 

[dodge]

Perhaps the box joining the VHF single-channel antenna and the bigger CM3649 is actually a pre-amp and the PERMACOLOR 10G205C in the house is the power injector to which you are referring. Maybe I have a pre-amp after all?

Yes the Permacolor 10G205c is indeed a preamp please see
http://www.dowelectronics.com/Produ...tionandDistributionAccessories-SectionVI3.pdf

do a control F in the pdf and search for the 10G205C and you"ll see it.
ANTC
10G205C !
Permacolor® pre–amplifier
• Combined 300 ohm VHF/UHF
input
• 300 or 75 ohm output
• Mast mounted with indoor
power supply
• Gain: 28.3 dB VHF, 24.8dB
UHF
• Noise: 3.5 VHF, 4.4 UHF
*Input level 98.0 (dBmV)

 

[120inna55]

Yes the Permacolor 10G205c is indeed a preamp...

Thanks for clearing that up, dodge. Man, I'm a newb.

Since nightfall, all the DFW channels that were in the 80's are now 99-100. I'm aware of how the phenomenon occurs. I wonder if adding an amp to my current setup would hurt my signal when it peaks like this (I don't know the word for it, but I think I recall reading that amping strong signals will kill your signal).

I supposed their being in the 80's during the daytime is adequate and stable (now that I've removed the problematic component). Maybe that cheap Walmart amp was doing just that, over amping my signal.

I'll find a three-way splitter and take into account what Jim5506 said about the lower output port and I'll make sure that goes to the FM tuner.

As it is now, and as dodge established, I have a pre-amp going to a two way splitter with one feed going to a STB and one going to the FM tuner. The FM tuner reception is better than it's ever been, and the STB has good (80's) signals in the day and perfect at night. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a three-way splitter is all I need to get OTA to my second STB, right?

 

[Jim5506]

Stick a 3 way in and see what it does to your reception, doesn't cost much.

If the three way deteriorates signal too much, you can use a two way and select which outputs to connect at any one time.

 

[120inna55]

I spoke too soon. I checked signal strengths this morning after making no changes since last night when I had 90-100. This morning I'm having 60's to 70's with dropouts. Why the huge swings? No wind. Perfect weather. The DFW area is having rain, but my DISH LiL's are unaffected.

It's making me reconsider an amp, however, if I'm receiving 100's at night, would an amp be too much?

 

[boba]

Athens is SE of Dallas and that is the direction the front is moving. I wouldn't be surprised to see signals increase as the front passes. TV antenna signals are not free from atmospheric changes and digital signals behave a little differently than analog.

A signal amplifier won't necessarily improve digital signals it will improve the carrier but dosen't have as much effect on the digital content. A 2 way splitter and a 4 way splitter may show up with the same % signal even though the 4 way is only sending half the carrier signal because the 1 & 0 digital information is still there.

A good antenna, correctly aimed with as short a cable as possible will help get the signal to your tuners. In your case the pre amp will help, you probably won't need any additional amplification. After 10 years of exposure you may have corrosion on connection points especially old baluns and coaxial cables.

 

[120inna55]

Thank you all for the feedback.

Tonight I'm getting everything maxed out to 99-100 again. Interestingly, I still pull in KLTV (7.1) out of Tyler/Longview even though my antennae are aimed at DFW.

I check again in the morning to see if the signals dip again.

 

[120inna55]

...I check again in the morning to see if the signals dip again.

It must've been the weather as suggested by boba. This morning, signals are still high.

I haven't gotten around to adding the three-way splitter. It's not essential because the two-way splitter is feeding the DVR I use most as well as the FM tuner. I may never miss the redundant OTA on the second DVR.