OTA channel guide problem

mwdxer1

mwdxer1

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When it comes to OTA, it is not really important to Dish. They don't make any $$$ offering a OTA guide. Now the Dish guide is important as that is part of the package that is paid for.
 
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Jim5506

Jim5506

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Well, OTA TV reception is NOT their business model. They provide it just as a courtesy. Way back when, they did noe even provide it, you just got the satellite channels. OTA was the customer's job.
 
D

DP1962

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Jul 19, 2005
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Well, OTA TV reception is NOT their business model. They provide it just as a courtesy. Way back when, they did noe even provide it, you just got the satellite channels. OTA was the customer's job.
Yet they give away antennas and promote OTA when they get into one of their all too common programming disputes, so it's more than just a courtesy. They do this then provide incorrect or missing OTA guide information for those channels is just poor business period.

Even absent a programming dispute anything Dish provides through their system represents Dish Network and to have something as poor as the OTA guide information is isn't a courtesy it's an annoyance, which is pushed even further when you try and get some resolution.

Just doesn't seem like this should be that difficult to resolve, like Scott said Sling has it correct and complete, as do other providers.
 
MikeD-C05

MikeD-C05

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I havea contact at DISH. That contact has listened to gripes and suggestions and given me accurate information. I have raised this issue to that contact. All i got was a sigh and a question as to whether this is really a serious problem. In other words I see nothing to indicate that DISH sees this as a problem.
Same here when I contacted them. They just don't seem to attach any importance to resolving it for their customers either.
 
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S

sam_gordon

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May 21, 2009
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Well, OTA TV reception is NOT their business model. They provide it just as a courtesy. Way back when, they did noe even provide it, you just got the satellite channels. OTA was the customer's job.
If they want to take that stance, that's totally fine. Then utilize PSIP to populate the guide. Even if it only goes out 3 hours, that's better than nothing (which apparently some people disagree with).
 
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D

DP1962

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Jul 19, 2005
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Today the guide is corrected. No explanation. I hope this is a trend that continues with everyone else with this. Thank you all for the education.
The two sub-channels that had flip flopped guide data a couple weeks ago are back to being correct but nothing else was updated or corrected for my OTA guide. KMNF NBC still has CBS guide data and the same number of channels still have no data at all, so unfortunately it doesn't appear this is any sort of a trend to improvements of the OTA guide, at least yet.
 
J

Jeffrey A

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If they want to take that stance, that's totally fine. Then utilize PSIP to populate the guide. Even if it only goes out 3 hours, that's better than nothing (which apparently some people disagree with).
I believe the reason they provide this service is because they often have pricing disputes with local channels. Customers are left without these local channels which tempt us to switch providers so we can get the channels we pay for. They even have given free antennas and OTA adapters to customers that have lost their locals due to disputes. So this is not just a gracious gift from their generous hearts. It is for customer retention. If there is a fix it might be worth their while to pursue.
 
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D

DishSubLA

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Apr 9, 2006
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One of the things I want to do while out at Team Summit is find out what is the best way for us to report these issues.

Here in Connecticut most of the OTA channels have no guide data, yet on Sling TV they do have the guide data. Same company right?
And you could mention that TiVo achieves near (they do have their few goofs--BUT THEY OFTEN FIX THOSE RARE GOOFS and can work with subscribers and stations it seems BETTER than Dish) perfection with its OTA Diginets/sub-channel EPG data.

I wonder if "where to report" will make much difference. I have a sense that this is more about having the people (always the economics) to fix high number of problems reported throughout the country working with subscribers and stations that will require a (mostly?) committed "staff" of at least one or two people (just a guess) to fix errors in a reasonable amount of time.

Perhaps you could communicate how IMPORTANT the OTA guide data is to keeping subscribers with Dish and feeling the enhanced experience at being more satisfied with the service and not leaving Dish for OTA channels with reliable data paired with a streaming service, which is a very common hybrid that a great many people on forums state they set-up when leaving pay linear TV services like Dish.

Sorry for the length, but you should know I appreciate everything you do, and any efforts you deem sufficient at communicating this to Dish is greatly appreciated. You're in the tough spot of being the messenger, and we thank you for it. Dear old mom and I really do like viewing and DVR'ing OTA diginets on Dish, but she doesn't know what is on many of those channels do to no programming data for a great many channels like MOVIES and others not offered via satellite.

Once again, thanks for all your efforts.
 
Y

Yespage

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Finally re-established an attic antenna, and get most of the locals again. And the sub-channel OTA guide issues is annoying. But I get lucky in that the two PBS channel slate (WVIZ and WNEO), which is one of the more watched set of channels, is fully populated guide wise on. I can't figure out why that is. If the diginets exist everywhere, not certain why those channels can't have guide info, it isn't as if they are independent of each other. I think I have a couple other sub-channels with guide info. Everything else is blank, and this is forgiving the 19/43 issue where the programming guide is the same, but I believe that the local channel owner's fault.
 
B

bnewt

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Oct 6, 2003
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One of the things I want to do while out at Team Summit is find out what is the best way for us to report these issues.

Here in Connecticut most of the OTA channels have no guide data, yet on Sling TV they do have the guide data. Same company right?
that sure would be nice...especially if it would include the sub channels too
the sub channels display guide info using the tv tuner, but not using Dish guide
 
pattykay

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One of the things I want to do while out at Team Summit is find out what is the best way for us to report these issues.
Just a friendly last-minute reminder that you did pledge to bring this up at Team Summit. I for one very much appreciate this, and I would love to see some progress made on this issue.

Some quick googlage tells me that there are 210 DMAs in the U.S. Just think...if there were at least one SatelliteGuys Dish forum follower in each of the 210 DMAs who could help out by:
1. Enabling Dish-provided locals on their programming, at least temporarily
2. Getting an OTA adapter installed on their Hopper with a decent antenna and scanning for channels
3. Made a list of the issues that exist between how Dish-provided locals show up in the guide vs. how OTA channels show up in the guide
4. Submitted the list to a Dish focal point who could demonstrate some level of concern for fixing the issues
5. Having the focal point coordinate the fixing of the problems and communicating the status back to those concerned

I would volunteer to be the guy for my DMA to do this. 209 others and some commitment from Dish, and we'd have a real start on this thing.
I would gladly volunteer to be the tester for the Cleveland, Ohio DMA, if we get some kind of dedicated portal for officially reporting these OTA guide data issues.

Dish recently launched the HD feed of WRLM channel 47 in the Cleveland locals package. According to the latest uplink report about this channel (when the uplink report system was still working) this feed has specific OTA guide data mapping to 47-01. Despite this change, my OTA guide for 047-01 is still a mirror of host station WEAO 049-01 PBS guide data.
 
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pattykay

pattykay

formerly crodrules
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and this is forgiving the 19/43 issue where the programming guide is the same, but I believe that the local channel owner's fault.
I don't blame the owner of these channels (Gray Media Group). This is the same "host station guide mapping to both stations' channel numbers" issue that plagues many stations with many different owners, in markets across the entire country. Dish needs to specify the exact channel number for the OTA mapping, instead of relying on TSID... Subchannel 01, etc. mapping like they currently use.

Here is James Long's OTA guide data list for the Cleveland market. (Keeping in mind that updates have not been posted since late April when the uplink reporting system went down.)
OTA Program Guide Data:
3-01​
WKYC TSID 0x08CD, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5202/8512)
3-02​
WKYC2 TSID 0x08CD, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14666)
5-01​
WEWS TSID 0x08CF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5200/8510)
8-01​
WJW TSID 0x08D1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5203/8513)
12-01​
WMFD TSID 0x08F1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 8522)
19-01​
WOIO TSID 0x08FD, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5201/8511)
19-02​
WOIO2 TSID 0x08FD, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14875)
23-01​
WVPX TSID 0x08AF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5212/8524)
25-01​
WVIZ TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5206/8516)
25-02​
WVIZ2 TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14668)
25-03​
WVIZ3 TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 03 (DISH EPG 15187)
25-04​
WVIZ4 TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 04 (DISH EPG 14531)
43-01​
WUAB TSID 0x08EF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5205/8515)
43-02​
WUAB2 TSID 0x08EF, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14667)
47-01​
WRLM TSID 0x08BF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5214/8523)
49-01​
WEAO TSID 0x08B1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5210/8520)
49-02​
WEAO2 TSID 0x08B1, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14529)
55-01​
WBNX TSID 0x08B3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5204/8514)
61-01​
WQHS TSID 0x08D5, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5211/8521)

Notice that every station on this list still simply says "Subchannel 01" 02, etc.
In other markets where Dish has fixed the guide mapping for at least some stations, there are specific channels listed for the mapping. See the Cincinnati list (at the above link) for some examples of that.

This Cleveland situation also results in WVPX 023-01 guide data being duplicated on WDLI 017-01 (the last time I checked) since those stations also share the same frequency, with WVPX as the host.
 
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Peter Parker

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I don't blame the owner of these channels (Gray Media Group). This is the same "host station guide mapping to both stations' channel numbers" issue that plagues many stations with many different owners, in markets across the entire country. Dish needs to specify the exact channel number for the OTA mapping, instead of relying on TSID... Subchannel 01, etc. mapping like they currently use.

Here is James Long's OTA guide data list for the Cleveland market. (Keeping in mind that updates have not been posted since late April when the uplink reporting system went down.)
OTA Program Guide Data:
3-01​
WKYCTSID 0x08CD, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5202/8512)
3-02​
WKYC2TSID 0x08CD, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14666)
5-01​
WEWSTSID 0x08CF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5200/8510)
8-01​
WJWTSID 0x08D1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5203/8513)
12-01​
WMFDTSID 0x08F1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 8522)
19-01​
WOIOTSID 0x08FD, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5201/8511)
19-02​
WOIO2TSID 0x08FD, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14875)
23-01​
WVPXTSID 0x08AF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5212/8524)
25-01​
WVIZTSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5206/8516)
25-02​
WVIZ2TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14668)
25-03​
WVIZ3TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 03 (DISH EPG 15187)
25-04​
WVIZ4TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 04 (DISH EPG 14531)
43-01​
WUABTSID 0x08EF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5205/8515)
43-02​
WUAB2TSID 0x08EF, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14667)
47-01​
WRLMTSID 0x08BF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5214/8523)
49-01​
WEAOTSID 0x08B1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5210/8520)
49-02​
WEAO2TSID 0x08B1, Subchannel 02 (DISH EPG 14529)
55-01​
WBNXTSID 0x08B3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5204/8514)
61-01​
WQHSTSID 0x08D5, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5211/8521)

Notice that every station on this list still simply says "Subchannel 01" 02, etc.
In other markets where Dish has fixed the guide mapping for at least some stations, there are specific channels listed for the mapping. See the Cincinnati list (at the above link) for some examples of that.

This Cleveland situation also results in WVPX 023-01 guide data being duplicated on WDLI 017-01 (the last time I checked) since those stations also share the same frequency, with WVPX as the host.
The duplicate channel issue is common. The repack, ATSC deployment and station ownership changes and movement of diginets have made the DC OTS information almost worthless.
 
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pattykay

pattykay

formerly crodrules
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North Central Ohio
The duplicate channel issue is common. The repack, ATSC deployment and station ownership changes and movement of diginets have made the DC OTS information almost worthless.
True, and another flaw with Dish's OTA guide mapping system is all of the places that rely on OTA translators just to be able to get the signal.

Getting back to the WOIO / WUAB (Gray Media Group) example from the Cleveland market, last year they acquired low-power station WOHZ. They are now using that station as a translator simulcasting the full lineup (including subchannels) of WOIO and WUAB. This one holds a special place of infamy in my heart, since WOHZ used to be our local low-power station here in Mansfield, Ohio. So, even though I had stopped getting WOHZ's OTA signal several months before I noticed WOHZ Mansfield listed in the on-screen station identification for WUAB in the lower-right corner of the screen, I was still glad to see that. I thought it would give me some hope of actually receiving these stations OTA, finally giving us a reliable CBS and CW OTA in Mansfield.

Unfortunately, what actually happened is that Gray Media filed an application with the FCC to move WOHZ's city of license to Canton, Ohio. That request was approved shortly after I had noticed the "WOHZ Mansfield" listing in the on-screen station identification. The station now broadcasts from Canton, and is identified as "WOHZ Canton." This is great for people who live in the Canton area, who also badly needed an OTA translator for WOIO and WUAB. However, it sucks for those of us in Mansfield, since it means that I still cannot receive these stations OTA. It hurts that Gray Media stole our station to serve a different part of the market instead.

Anyway, my point about the guide mapping is that this translator would have a different TSID than the main station. So, people who rely on this translator might very well expect to be able to get the guide data, at least for the major networks like CBS and CW. However, with the way Dish currently does things, they would be unable to get any guide data at all, unless Dish adds separate guide data streams specifically for that translator.

Gray Media also launched another low-power station in the Parma area that serves as Cleveland's new Telemundo affiliate. This station uses its subchannels to simulcast the main WOIO (CBS) and WUAB (CW) feeds. Dish does not carry this Telemundo affiliate, so viewers who rely on that station would also have to go without guide data, including missing the guide data for the major network simulcasts. Also unfortunately for me, the signal from the station in Parma does not reach the Mansfield area, either.
 
K

kwd57

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Oct 1, 2003
31
0
I have Dish Hopper 3. I have a OTA adapter feeding the Hopper from my antenna. The Hopper is supposed to display these OTA channels in the program guide and it did as expected. But for the last couple months OTA channel 009-1 CBS displays the wrong information. It displays NBC. I contacted Dish support with no answers. Is there a fix for this?
My KTTV 11.1 shows guide info. for KTLA in the Los Angeles area. I think Dish could get it fixed if they wanted to. I think Dish seems to be going down the tubes and since my contract ends this month, I am not sure if I will stay with them, and I have had them since they started as Echostar.
 
pattykay

pattykay

formerly crodrules
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Jun 14, 2014
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North Central Ohio
I have Dish Hopper 3. I have a OTA adapter feeding the Hopper from my antenna. The Hopper is supposed to display these OTA channels in the program guide and it did as expected. But for the last couple months OTA channel 009-1 CBS displays the wrong information. It displays NBC. I contacted Dish support with no answers. Is there a fix for this?
If you are in the Traverse City, MI market, then I may have found what happened in the Uplink Report archives.

Today the guide is corrected. No explanation. I hope this is a trend that continues with everyone else with this. Thank you all for the education.
Backtracking from this post from April 7, I found this in the April 6 uplink:
39 changes seen 4/6/22 at 3:13pm ET (v13)
...
Other Changes
...
5251 WWTV (9 HD Local) CADILLAC, MI (CBS) 61.5° 31s6 (Lower Michigan) HD Traverse City, MI market Hidden - OTA Mapping Added (9-01)
...
7151 WWTV (9 Local) CADILLAC, MI (CBS) 110° 4s18 (Lake Michigan) SD Traverse City, MI market Hidden - OTA Mapping Added (9-01)
...
Uplinks Removed
...
13112 WWTV CADILLAC, MI (CBS) removed from 110° 4s18 (Lake Michigan) (OTA EPG Data)


This reverses a change that Dish made on 9/8/2021:
New Uplinks / Mappings – Channels NOT Available
13112 WWTV CADILLAC, MI (CBS) added to 110° 4s18 (Lake Michigan) (OTA EPG Data) No EPG – OTA Mapping (-01)
...
Other Changes
...
5251 WWTV (9 HD Local) CADILLAC, MI (CBS) 61.5° 31s6 (Lower Michigan) HD Traverse City, MI market Hidden – OTA Mapping Removed (9-01)
7151 WWTV (9 Local) CADILLAC, MI (CBS) 110° 4s18 (Lake Michigan) SD Traverse City, MI market Hidden – OTA Mapping Removed (9-01)


If I had to guess, I would say that it looks like Dish was preparing for a potential contract dispute with this station by removing the OTA guide data link from the satellite-delivered version, and uplinking a separate guide data stream for the OTA channel instead. This way, if the station got removed from the local package, OTA viewers would still have guide data instead of the dispute message from the satellite channel's guide. It would seem that somewhere along the way, Dish got mixed-up about which guide data to provide for this station, leading to the issue in the OP.

After reaching a long-term contract to carry the station, Dish tends to reverse this type of guide data change in order to save on satellite bandwidth. It uses less bandwidth to simply link the guide from the satellite channel to the OTA channel, rather than have a separate guide data stream for each version. This is what happened on April 6, leading to the issue being resolved by April 7.

See, this type of situation is why the uplink reports come in handy. :poke
 
llokey

llokey

SatelliteGuys Guru
Oct 11, 2005
121
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One of the things I want to do while out at Team Summit is find out what is the best way for us to report these issues.

Here in Connecticut most of the OTA channels have no guide data, yet on Sling TV they do have the guide data. Same company right?

Did you get any feedback on this topic Scott?
 
DWS44

DWS44

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Scott may chime in with more info, but he did post briefly in another thread regarding OTA Guide:

So nothing about the ota guide problems we have been suffering with for the last 4 years? I thought that you might talk about it to Charlie.

I did talk about it and they are fully aware of it. They are working with Gracenote on it. Although they feel Gracenote is not working fast enough on it.

The issue is now there are only two guide providers left with Gracenote being one of them.
 
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Scott Greczkowski

Scott Greczkowski

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Yes... there is not enough bandwidth on the satellites for guide data for all the subchannels.

They were looking into IP delivery for the guide data for those channels, however so few people have OTA tuners it is not currently a priority for them.

Some of the other guide issues are known and they are depending on Gracenote (the guide supplier) to fix those issues.
 
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