OTA channel guide problem

MikeD-C05

MikeD-C05

Pub Member / Supporter
Pub Member / Supporter
Nov 25, 2003
26,620
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Nederland , Texas
Yes... there is not enough bandwidth on the satellites for guide data for all the subchannels.

They were looking into IP delivery for the guide data for those channels, however so few people have OTA tuners it is not currently a priority for them.

Some of the other guide issues are known and they are depending on Gracenote (the guide supplier) to fix those issues.
So basically no change then. I knew they weren't attaching any importance to ota subs ,but for those who want ota guide information this is very disappointing. Maybe they could do as I suggested and use the guide information for the ota channels like Sling tv does. They seem to use a better guide company that gets all the channels and sub channels without much delay even if you add a new channel that started up. Tablo must use another company that keeps up with the guide information and they are a Candian company. Both use internet to supply the guide information. Sounds like DISH needs to stop fooling with Gracenote for ota channels and use the companies the Sling tv does for their guide and it could be added by internet instead of satellite delivery.
 
Altitudinous

Altitudinous

SatelliteGuys Pro
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Oct 6, 2020
334
544
Northern NM
Yes... there is not enough bandwidth on the satellites for guide data for all the subchannels.

They were looking into IP delivery for the guide data for those channels, however so few people have OTA tuners it is not currently a priority for them.

Some of the other guide issues are known and they are depending on Gracenote (the guide supplier) to fix those issues.
Scott, your attendance and documentation of the Summit was much appreciated!

A couple of points about OTA:
1. I don't think many people are asking for guide data for all the subchannels.
2. Maybe we could start small...say, have proper guide data for each of the 210 DMAs for those using OTA adapters for CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, PBS, CW. Not every strange and wonderful subchannel out there. Enough people have reported totally missing guide data for some of those major networks in various DMAs.
3. Which of the "other guide issues are known"? Is there a way that Dish and Gracenote have committed to allowing transparency on the progress of fixing guide issues?
4. How about an enhancement to the Hopper Plus...some kind of Android app, fed by reliable information, that properly feeds the integrated guide info displayed for the OTA and Dish-delivered channels?
5. "so few people have OTA tuners it is not currently a priority for them"...and yet Dish wants to be the one main interface that subscribers use to access their various sources of content. Huh. I guess they're not serious about it, is what I'd take from that.
 
pattykay

pattykay

formerly crodrules
Pub Member / Supporter
Jun 14, 2014
8,117
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North Central Ohio
1. I don't think many people are asking for guide data for all the subchannels.
And yet the Locast app was able to provide that in nearly every case. Which guide data provider did they use? It would have been nice to see the Locast app continue, even if it was for guide data only, and then map that guide data to the appropriate OTA channels in the Dish guide.

2. Maybe we could start small...say, have proper guide data for each of the 210 DMAs for those using OTA adapters for CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, PBS, CW. Not every strange and wonderful subchannel out there. Enough people have reported totally missing guide data for some of those major networks in various DMAs.
Slight nitpick as Dish actually serves 212 markets. Nielsen doesn't count Puerto Rico or the US Virgin Islands, but Dish serves both of those.

I would add that proper OTA guide should be there for every channel that Dish actually carries in their local package, regardless of major network, minor network, independent, etc. The guide data streams are already uplinked. It is just a matter of mapping them properly.

Another example from the Cleveland market (the last one I'll give, since I already reported the other issues above) is independent station WMFD. Dish carries WMFD on channel 12 (matching their digital frequency) although WMFD's virtual OTA channel is 068-01. OTA guide data for WMFD has been completely missing for years, since shortly after Dish started carrying WMFD. (In other words, the guide mapping actually worked properly temporarily, before almost immediately getting broken. The guide mapping was never fixed again after that.)

3. Which of the "other guide issues are known"?
Well, I know that Dish is aware of the WMFD OTA guide issue I mentioned above, since I reported it to them more than once when I was still a beta tester. No action was ever taken on fixing this issue, as far as I know.
Is there a way that Dish and Gracenote have committed to allowing transparency on the progress of fixing guide issues?
I agree, more transparency is definitely needed. :thumbup
 
M

MichaelK

Member
Feb 20, 2020
8
5
PA - USA
Yes, I have the same issue. This concept boggled me; how could stations get conflated?
My local PBS shows the guide for my local FOX station.
I recall (from a few years ago) discovering this -- but I can't find the website that showed it.
Is there a website that shows the issue?
I'd like to submit this, if we have a campaign going.
 
R

Ray_Clum

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 10, 2005
191
68
Indianapolis, IN
1. I don't think many people are asking for guide data for all the subchannels.
Speak for yourself…

I want the ability to see what is on those subchannels and set timers for some shows that my son wants to watch, but don’t know if they’re on without that knowledge.

Even if it’s the info from the OTA signal itself, which should provide a few hours of EPG info, that would be better than nothing.
 
P

pamajestic

SatelliteGuys Pro
Pub Member / Supporter
Mar 25, 2009
222
112
Gettysburg, PA
Yes, I have the same issue. This concept boggled me; how could stations get conflated?
My local PBS shows the guide for my local FOX station.
I recall (from a few years ago) discovering this -- but I can't find the website that showed it.
Is there a website that shows the issue?
I'd like to submit this, if we have a campaign going.
January 2018 WPMT FOX43 begin channel sharing with WITF PBS33 and the FOX OTA guide data displayed PBS programming until March 2nd 2022 at which point it appeared that the guide issue was corrected, however they just reversed it. The OTA data for FOX is now correct, but the PBS guide data displays FOX information.
 
pattykay

pattykay

formerly crodrules
Pub Member / Supporter
Jun 14, 2014
8,117
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North Central Ohio
January 2018 WPMT FOX43 begin channel sharing with WITF PBS33 and the FOX OTA guide data displayed PBS programming until March 2nd 2022 at which point it appeared that the guide issue was corrected, however they just reversed it. The OTA data for FOX is now correct, but the PBS guide data displays FOX information.
Yes, here is the uplink that fixed WPMT FOX guide data:
Other Changes
...
5173 WPMT (43 HD Local) YORK, PA (FOX) 61.5° 30s52 (MD/PA) HD Harrisburg, PA market Hidden – OTA Mapping Added (43-01)
...
Uplinks Removed
...
13317 WPMT YORK, PA (FOX) removed from 110° 18s4 (WMassachusetts) (OTA EPG Data)


(This was part of the cleanup from the Tegna dispute, restoring OTA guide mapping to the satellite-delivered version of each channel, and removing the separate OTA guide data streams.)

From James Long's local list for Harrisburg, PA, it appears that PBS WITF does have specific OTA guide mapping to 33-01:
Harrisburg, PA
...
OTA Program Guide Data:
...
33-01​
WITF TSID 0x09A9, Channel 33-01 (DISH Channel 5174/9021)
33-01​
WPMT TSID 0x09A9, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5173)
33-03​
WITF3 TSID 0x09A9, Subchannel 03 (DISH EPG 14721)
43-01​
WPMT TSID 0x09A9, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5173)

There are two problems here:
  • First, despite the above uplink showing specific OTA guide mapping to 43-01, the listing for 43-01 OTA guide data still simply says "Subchannel 01." This would map this station's guide to any channel number that uses the same TSID and has a subchannel -01.
  • Second, there is also a duplicate WPMT for 33-01, and this is likely blocking you from seeing the correct guide data stream for WITF 33-01. It is possible that a re-scan of your OTA channels may fix this issue. However, your next OTA re-scan after that could just as easily reverse it, and so on, until the duplicate 33-01 guide data stream is removed.
Also, the 33-03 WITF3 guide data stream simply says "Subchannel 03" which would map this guide data to both WITF3 and WPMT3, if WPMT has a subchannel -03.
 
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M

MichaelK

Member
Feb 20, 2020
8
5
PA - USA
January 2018 WPMT FOX43 begin channel sharing with WITF PBS33 and the FOX OTA guide ...

Yes, here is the uplink that fixed WPMT FOX guide data:
...


OTA Program Guide Data:
...
33-01​
WITFTSID 0x09A9, Channel 33-01 (DISH Channel 5174/9021)
33-01​
WPMTTSID 0x09A9, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5173)
33-03​
WITF3TSID 0x09A9, Subchannel 03 (DISH EPG 14721)
43-01​
WPMTTSID 0x09A9, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5173)

There are two problems here:
  • First, despite the above uplink showing specific OTA guide mapping to 43-01, the listing for 43-01 OTA guide data still simply says "Subchannel 01." This would map this station's guide to any channel number that uses the same TSID and has a subchannel -01.
  • Second, there is also a duplicate WPMT for 33-01, and this is likely blocking you from seeing the correct guide data stream for WITF 33-01. It is possible that a re-scan of your OTA channels may fix this issue. However, your next OTA re-scan after that could just as easily reverse it, and so on, until the duplicate 33-01 guide data stream is removed.
Also, the 33-03 WITF3 guide data stream simply says "Subchannel 03" which would map this guide data to both WITF3 and WPMT3, if WPMT has a subchannel -03.
WOW! That is an excellent analysis. I'm new to this stuff, but I can understand it. It's nice to get this -- I was thinking that I'd have to contact the stations, and inform them that something is broken.
Thank you! :)
 
pattykay

pattykay

formerly crodrules
Pub Member / Supporter
Jun 14, 2014
8,117
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North Central Ohio
WOW! That is an excellent analysis. I'm new to this stuff, but I can understand it. It's nice to get this --
Yes, James's site is a nice resource. Unfortunately going forward, we are not likely to get updated information like this, since it looks like he is no longer maintaining the uplink report site that provides the data for those pages. :(

-- I was thinking that I'd have to contact the stations, and inform them that something is broken.
It still might not hurt to contact the stations anyway. If nothing else, the stations' owners may be able to put some pressure on Dish to get any issues with their stations' OTA guide data fixed.

Sometimes, the TSID mismatch actually is caused on the station's end. In other words, the TSID that Dish has in their guide database is correct (according to the FCC) but the station is actually broadcasting something different. As soon as the station changes the TSID being broadcast to match the one Dish has listed for it, the OTA guide data issue would be resolved.
 
zippyfrog

zippyfrog

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Dec 27, 2007
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We don't have James Long's uplinks right now, but I can tell one change that occurred this week - here in Chicago, MeTV, channel 23-01, now has the correct EPG. For many months now, the EPG was for a FOX channel in Texas. It is now showing the proper programming.
 
mwdxer1

mwdxer1

SatelliteGuys Pro
Nov 3, 2015
1,659
1,488
Seaside Oregon
Scott, your attendance and documentation of the Summit was much appreciated!

A couple of points about OTA:
1. I don't think many people are asking for guide data for all the subchannels.
2. Maybe we could start small...say, have proper guide data for each of the 210 DMAs for those using OTA adapters for CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, PBS, CW. Not every strange and wonderful subchannel out there. Enough people have reported totally missing guide data for some of those major networks in various DMAs.
3. Which of the "other guide issues are known"? Is there a way that Dish and Gracenote have committed to allowing transparency on the progress of fixing guide issues?
4. How about an enhancement to the Hopper Plus...some kind of Android app, fed by reliable information, that properly feeds the integrated guide info displayed for the OTA and Dish-delivered channels?
5. "so few people have OTA tuners it is not currently a priority for them"...and yet Dish wants to be the one main interface that subscribers use to access their various sources of content. Huh. I guess they're not serious about it, is what I'd take from that.
Yes, it would be nice to have details on all sub channels, but I would like to finally get correct OTA data on my network stations! Used to be all of the channels that had data were correct. Now several including (KATU) ABC, do not. They show some other channel programming.
 
pattykay

pattykay

formerly crodrules
Pub Member / Supporter
Jun 14, 2014
8,117
6,921
North Central Ohio
We don't have James Long's uplinks right now, but I can tell one change that occurred this week - here in Chicago, MeTV, channel 23-01, now has the correct EPG. For many months now, the EPG was for a FOX channel in Texas. It is now showing the proper programming.
Like you said, we can't see what fixed it. However, here is likely what broke it:
New Uplinks / Mappings – Channels NOT Available
...
13042 WWME CHICAGO, IL added to 110° 31s19 (Central Illinois) (OTA EPG Data) No EPG – OTA Mapping (-01)
...
Other Changes
...
8505 WWME (23 Local) CHICAGO, IL 110° 31s19 (Central Illinois) SD Chicago, IL market Hidden – OTA Mapping Removed (23-01)


Has anyone noticed any recent OTA guide changes to any of the other stations from that uplink report? Maybe Dish recently reversed whatever they did at the end of March 2021.
 
zippyfrog

zippyfrog

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Like you said, we can't see what fixed it. However, here is likely what broke it:
New Uplinks / Mappings – Channels NOT Available
...
13042 WWME CHICAGO, IL added to 110° 31s19 (Central Illinois) (OTA EPG Data) No EPG – OTA Mapping (-01)
...
Other Changes
...
8505 WWME (23 Local) CHICAGO, IL 110° 31s19 (Central Illinois) SD Chicago, IL market Hidden – OTA Mapping Removed (23-01)


Has anyone noticed any recent OTA guide changes to any of the other stations from that uplink report? Maybe Dish recently reversed whatever they did at the end of March 2021.
Yep! WWME is the channel that was fixed. That would make sense. It was a long time ago...and a year ago wouldn't surprise me!
 
D

DP1962

SatelliteGuys Family
Jul 19, 2005
39
13
One of the things I want to do while out at Team Summit is find out what is the best way for us to report these issues.

Here in Connecticut most of the OTA channels have no guide data, yet on Sling TV they do have the guide data. Same company right?

Did this ever happen as far as finding out the best way to report these issues? Dish should provide a way to report these issues.

You stated in another response that some of the guide issues were known and Dish was depending on Gracenote to fix those, is Gracenote making any effort at all to correct these issues? Is contacting Gracenote an option?
 
T

tpribors

SatelliteGuys Family
Jun 5, 2020
48
28
Las Vegas, NV
There has been a shuffling of OTA networks in Las Vegas. The two that I know of are that MeTV moved from 8-2 to 21-1 and H&I from 21-1 to 21-2. There may be others.

This means two things

1. Channel/network mapping in the Guide needs to be updated.

2. The guide info for most of the subchannels has not listed programming for many - e.g., Heros is displayed across hourly time slots. But... MeTV always listed correct programming info for 8-2. It would be nice if at least the time correct info for MeTV was also moved by Dish.
 
brittanygarden

brittanygarden

DISH Technical Operations
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Mar 22, 2021
133
159
Denver, CO
There has been a shuffling of OTA networks in Las Vegas. The two that I know of are that MeTV moved from 8-2 to 21-1 and H&I from 21-1 to 21-2. There may be others.
Responded to your private message, Tony.
 
dweber

dweber

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Jul 29, 2005
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On January 8, 2021 ATSC 3.0 broadcasts started in Columbus, Ohio. WTTE Fox 28 moved to channel 6-03 and 28-01 became TBD. Unfortunately over a year later the Dish Guide still shows the WTTE Fox 28 information for channel 28-01. The Dish Guide for Channel 6-03 says Fox 28 but does not have the program information. Can we get this fixed?
 
brittanygarden

brittanygarden

DISH Technical Operations
Pub Member / Supporter
Mar 22, 2021
133
159
Denver, CO
On January 8, 2021 ATSC 3.0 broadcasts started in Columbus, Ohio. WTTE Fox 28 moved to channel 6-03 and 28-01 became TBD. Unfortunately over a year later the Dish Guide still shows the WTTE Fox 28 information for channel 28-01. The Dish Guide for Channel 6-03 says Fox 28 but does not have the program information. Can we get this fixed?
Please send me a private message with your receiver number and photo of your guide, if possible. Thank you.
 
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tpribors

SatelliteGuys Family
Jun 5, 2020
48
28
Las Vegas, NV
Responded to your private message, Tony.
Hi Brittany, I can't seem to attach pictures to the personal message thread but they do seem to attach here.

The 8/21 shuffle happened on 1-Jun-22. This was when MeTV moved and both 8 and 21 shuffled their programming into other slots. 8-2 was MeTV and became Rewind TV. . 21-1 was H&I and became MeTV. 21-2 was ? and became H&I. I don't know if either grid's content is correct for the other subchannels of either 8 or 21. I would expect that somewhere there is an official definitive list of what is going out over the air but I'll be danged if I can find it :) It would be nice if Dish could also fill in the programming info for some of the others that just show anonymous 1-hour blocks. Some of these channels are actually carried on dish so their programming is known.

Thanks!

Dish ch 8
Dish ch 21
Ota ch 8
Ota ch 21



Edit: Removed pic with receiver info. Left the grids so others can see since accurate grid info is an ongoing topic :)
 
Last edited:
brittanygarden

brittanygarden

DISH Technical Operations
Pub Member / Supporter
Mar 22, 2021
133
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Denver, CO
Scott Greczkowski Can you please delete tpribors post? It has receiver information.
 

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