PSIP and PBS - email I sent to Dish

[Pepper]

I sent the following email to dishquality@echostar.com and ceo@echostar.com. Feel free to do the same, use your own words of course. As usual I'm trying to get someone's attention to see if anything can change.

To: dishquality@echostar.com; ceo@echostar.com
Subject: OTA PBS and subchannels guide data

Hello,

I have noticed some issues with the OTA guide data since getting my ViP622 DVR. While the primary channel has usable guide data, secondary channels show only as "Digital Service". Also, all digital channels for the PBS stations show as "Digital Service." In my area (Mobile/Pensacola DMA) the PBS stations mirror their analog feed on the -02 channel and have PBS-HD on the -01 channel.

I am not sure whether these issues are being worked on or even on the table. Here are two suggestions I would like you to consider:

1. For PBS stations use the analog guide data for the -02 channel and include the PBS-HD guide for the 01 channel (this might not be constant across all markets but it would work in mine).

2. Use the PSIP data transmitted by the station for the subchannels which do not currently have guide data.

These fixes should be easy to fix in the software and guide data stream. Please let me know whether this could be done, a time frame for implementation, and whether you need more information.

Thanks
[my name and phone number]

EDIT: I guess either the ceo or dishquality group works all the time. Amazingly, on a Sunday evening, I got home from dinner after sending this and someone had already called and left a message on my machine. I called back and got voicemail which said they work till 9pm Mountain time. The email campaign I suggested can wait a little while till I see how this turns out.

 

[noremac]

Good luck!

Dish obviously has a poor implementation of guide data for OTA locals. First, to get any guide data for local channels with the 622, you have to subscribe to the locals option (another $5). Then after you succomb to that, the details are poorly implemented as your letter indicates. I don't believe the 622 makes any use of PSIP data.

The only hope I see in this situation improving is competition. DirectTV's HD boxes do an amazing job of displaying guide data for locals, and you DON'T have to sub to their local channel package to get it. Then obviously, cable company digital service includes guide data. Come on Dish! You look pathetic in this regard!

 

[Pepper]

I know their receivers can decode PSIP, because in the channel scan it retrieves the numeric identifiers and call letters. The issue is that they don't want to use it, as you said.

Might be a technical issue behind it but I tend to believe it's just for the ability to grab another five bucks from the subscriber.

 

[cpdretired]

Subscribing to a channel in some cases will not give you guide data. WGN is one of my local stations that I am subscribed to. I do not receive any guide information from WGN OTA digital. This was with the 811 that I had and also the 622 that I now have.

Someone called in at one of the Tech Forums with the PSIP question. The answer was that the HD boxes don't support PSIP.

 

[garys]

Someone called in at one of the Tech Forums with the PSIP question. The answer was that the HD boxes don't support PSIP.

I suspect the non-HD receivers don't either.

 

[pdxsam]

Non HD receivers wouldn't need to as they don't receive OTA digital broadcasts.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Dish buys their guide information from a 3rd party and there are only 2 of them that I am aware of.

 

[VinceT3]

Dish buys their guide information from a 3rd party and there are only 2 of them that I am aware of.

So that means they should choose the other one.

The one TVGuide on Screen (the one built into tv's now) uses the crappiest one which it gets through the local PBS station. That one's usually wrong, missing channels, generally broken.. The one Tivo uses is pretty good keeps up with changes much better and has more obscure groupings. Like my communities own special cable (70+ analog stations from D*)

 

[Pepper]

The reply they sent me overnight:

Thank you for your E-mail and bringing your concerns to our attention.

In order for the receiver to see what program information is available, the channel must be included in the subscribed DMA package from DISH Network accompanied with the necessary satellite feed in order to display the program information into the electronic program guide. DISH Network does not currently carry all of the digital feeds available through off-air broadcast and therefore does not have the ability to provide the programming information.

Thank you,
[name, phone & email removed]
Executive Resolution Team

And my rebuttal this morning:

OK, that makes sense; here is some more information for you then.

The two PBS stations, WSRE-23 and WEIQ-42, are in the DMA package. Channels 023-02 and 042-02 should be getting the guide data for analog 23 and 42, exactly as the corresponding xxx-01 channels are for the other stations in the DMA. These two at least should satisfy the requirements you listed.

I understand the rest of the local digitals do not meet the requirements so I don't expect anything done about them anytime soon (PBS-HD would be a good addition to the HD offerings and could at that time be added to the local DMA packages). However it seems it would be a simple thing to use the PSIP data in these cases - my research indicates that the DISH 811 receiver does or did at one time use PSIP data without requiring subscription to the locals DMA, and DirecTV's HD receivers do this also.

Here is the information for the other local digitals I know about.

003-02 "The Tube"
005-02 "First Alert Live Doppler"
015-02 "Weather Plus"
023-01 PBS-HD
023-03 "WSRE - Florida and You"
042-01 PBS-HD

The response (phone message) last night was within an hour or so. Since sending the above I've not yet heard anything. I suspect it may have been escalated.

 

[Pepper]

OK, I heard something finally. I've been asked not to say anything else about it at this time, so I won't.

 

[RedSavina]

Okay, I'll bite.

When will you be able to disclose what you learned? Is this something you would be willing to post in the pub?

(And why would you be asked not to say anything???)

Cheers,
Red

 

[kb7oeb]

So that means they should choose the other one.

The one TVGuide on Screen (the one built into tv's now) uses the crappiest one which it gets through the local PBS station. That one's usually wrong, missing channels, generally broken.. The one Tivo uses is pretty good keeps up with changes much better and has more obscure groupings. Like my communities own special cable (70+ analog stations from D*)

I have the analog tvguide in my SD tv and it works fine. It even gives you VCR+ codes, I used to use it all the time with my VCR.

 

[diat150]

I am getting pretty pissed off. I have spent 3 hours and 4 days and still havent gotten any guide info on my locals. any of them. I just emailed those addresses and hopefully someone can get the ball rolling.

 

[Pepper]

diat150: Do you subscribe to the locals package? That's the first requirement.

RedSavina: all I can say is they are trying some different things in some local markets to address these issues (read: experimenting). I won't say any more than that for now.

 

[diat150]

yeah. I subscribe to the locals.

 

[mdntblu]

I subscribe to the locals and do get all the guide data for the main channels. The extra stuff like TUBE, SMILE, KTBN, etc. just says Digital Service which means I can't setup timers to record anything unless I know the time and date. Then on my PBS stuff I get the guide data for PBS-01 which is analog from Dish, PBS-02 which is HD from OTA, then PBS-03 which is also Analog from OTA. They all show up. It's weird. I am in the Los Angeles market.

 

[waltinvt]

Good luck!

Dish obviously has a poor implementation of guide data for OTA locals. First, to get any guide data for local channels with the 622, you have to subscribe to the locals option (another $5). Then after you succomb to that, the details are poorly implemented as your letter indicates. I don't believe the 622 makes any use of PSIP data.

The only hope I see in this situation improving is competition. DirectTV's HD boxes do an amazing job of displaying guide data for locals, and you DON'T have to sub to their local channel package to get it. Then obviously, cable company digital service includes guide data. Come on Dish! You look pathetic in this regard!

I've been saying this for over a year and I almost always get flamed by the usual Dish deciples. Dish does not want to make it easier for you to watch OTA because they're afraid it will kill incentive to buy their LiLs.

So they set up their receivers to not use PSIP for guide data because then you could get that data regardless of if you subbed to LiLs. Because it's a typical Dish jury-rigged system, they can't give you all the EPG info even when you do sub to LiLs.

It's nothing more than another obvious ploy to get a few more bucks and frankly, it makes them look cheap. Dish has always used sleazy little schemes like that.

Read: no phone line fee; dvr fee; extra receiver fee; and my all time favorite, the disconnection / downgrade fee.

 

[kspeters]

I think the point should be that if you pay the locals fee you should get full guide data for over the air channels. If you don't pay the fee, then they could shut that off. It can't be that hard to do it that way and then they would be assured of getting the fee if people wanted the guide data bad enough. Right now hlaf my channels do not have guide data and I'm paying for it. Really P#$@es my off.

 

[diat150]

well after a back and forth email someone called me and we went thru some steps, but it still doesnt work and he is supposed to call me back.

 

[waltinvt]

I think the point should be that if you pay the locals fee you should get full guide data for over the air channels. If you don't pay the fee, then they could shut that off. It can't be that hard to do it that way and then they would be assured of getting the fee if people wanted the guide data bad enough. Right now hlaf my channels do not have guide data and I'm paying for it. Really P#$@es my off.

Well it oughta piss everyone off. As I understand it, the FCC requires stations to provide PSIP data according to specific regulations. I know of no other digital OTA receivers that can't receive the EPG via the PISP data stream except Dish receivers.

So either I'm not understanding it correctly or Dish is simply refusing to allow their receivers to pass on what's already there just so they can get an extra $6 a month from customers........and then they won't give it for all the OTA stations.