Remote (watch on web) works ONLY with old slow router.

karlschneider

Member
Jun 2, 2011
12
0
Wagoner, OK
I wasn't able to find this problem discussed, if I missed it, I apologize. Anyway here it is:
My Dish Remote was working fine across my own local network (to any of 3 different PCs, one at a time of course)

for several months but about 3 weeks ago something went wrong and the whole network went berserk...all the

different devices and computers basically quit getting IP address and wouldn't connect...I assumed it was a

router problem so I bought a new one but it acted the same way...I borrowed a THIRD one (new) from a friend and

it did too so I decided the problem was elsewhere. I spent 2 weeks tinkering with the whole setup...scanning

for viruses, double checking DHCP settings, bla bla bla...nothing seemed to work for more than a few hours then

the whole thing would crap out again but finally I apparently "fixed" whatever was causing the basic network

glitches but my Dish Remote Access would not work with any of 3 brand new -fast- routers. I do plead guilty of

not documenting everything I tried so as a result I do not know what cleared up whatever the problem was. My

bad there. The LAN was fine except for the Dish remote access, I would get either no connection to the VIP722 or

if I did, it would refuse to show anything and just came up with Error 2 or Error 16 or any of a half dozen

other ones...also "your device connected but the connection is not good enough quality to get video"...which

seems crazy because my old SLOW router that I decided to try out of desperation works fine like it used to

except being slow (about 2M throughput) limits the quality of my video stream. I can live with that but it sure

would be nice to take advantage of the faster one. Another glitch I
was getting was (part of the time, none of the problems were consistent!) that on entering either Dish Remote

Access or Dish Online (that last one has never once worked for me at all, with ANY router setup) they would

claim that my 722 was not online and that I should go through menu 6 1 9 2 and reset the connection but it

always says it IS online...shows the IP, the DNS and gateway...I don't know how to make it admit it isn't

connected "properly". This never happens with the old slow FVS router. It's maddening.

The old slow router is a Netgear FVS318 and the best brand new one I tried is a WNDR3700 which works fine on

every device in my LAN which includes 4 PCs and 2 ROKU players but it will not work with the 722 to stream

video. I changed NOTHING except the router and even tried disconnecing every device except the 722 and one PC

to try it and the fast new router simply will not work. It is driving me insane.

I suppose there is some remote odd chance this is a result of a router setting that I have totally overlooked

(or misunderstood) but I have tried 84,377 different combinations and nothing made any difference. If anybody

can point me in a direction to find an answer, I will be grateful and will send you a fifth of beverage of your

choice :)
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
An FVS318 .. is that the old metal cased netgear with a parallel port on the back? I have one of those sitting round here somewhere..

You're not the first to have this problem, and you're not the first to report it with a 3700.

Some things to note..

  • there have been outages *known and accepted by Dish* this past week or so.. that would cause Guide Data online not to show, others had problems accessing their DVR's.
    This turned out to be some "account" related issue on the back end servers, most that I've heard of got their accounts nixed or wiped or the magic mushroom spread its spores of love and the accounts shifted from what ever back end server they were on, to other servers (you see these when you go into Dish Remote Acces - not dishonline, and look at the URL ... dishXX.sling.com ... dish1.sling.com .. dish6.sling.com .. etc)
    .
  • shifting settings seem to have issues at times at dish .. replacing one router with another, cached credentials etc.. best thing is to have all but one browser closed .. go to DishOnline, login, then manually log out ... do the same at Dish Remote Access .. leave the credentials alone so that you have to manually log in each time you go (just for a while, while testing etc) once logged out of both sites, close the browser window. Then make your network changes
    .
  • I always recommend using Static DHCP for your dish receiver .. give it an IP outside the normal DHCP range so that you don't have rogue items accidentally taking IP's and it makes it easier for you to remember 1 static IP for 1 receiver than to have to go in and check it every time.
    .
  • if you're daring enough .. you could try using DD-WRT on your WNDR3700 router. DD-WRT is a replacement router firmware, looks a lot like the inside screens of a linksys router, but gives additional abilities well above what the router manufacturers include.

    there are special instructions to follow for flashing DD-WRT, and you can usually return back to the factory default firmware ... the main thing is being careful to move slowly on first flash to DD-WRT so that things have a chance to finish (if posts say to wait a full five minutes before attempting to reset .. wait the full 5 minutes!) Once DD-WRT is loaded, its just like your current firmware .... you log into its web page, and select the appropriate options. http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/support/router-database type in 3700 it will show you your router's info and has a link to flash instructions, etc.

    I'm currently using r15940 on my Linksys E2100L and having no problems streaming. The current "recommended" is 14896 ... there is a 15940 for the 3700 also ... and yes some bugs are hardware specific (i may have no problem in 15940 but your chips may not like it, or maybe someone else's Dlink or Buffalo doesn't like it and yours does, its a matter of "ifin' its workin' now, save the binary so that you have it ... you can always test another build and especially if a serious security risk gets disclosed)
Anyway.. if you'd like to try DD-WRT there are many using it and it works where the factory doesn't for us (I added an IP tables startup command to block all outbound SMTP attempts from my second network .. so that way when the cadets are over they get internet access but they can't spam from behind my network! .. lets see a regular soho firewall do that!)

Anyway ... try to keep things stable .. give things a day to do so, before trying something that might not be instantly and properly accepted by the Dish back end.. and if still having the problems with content access ... send a PM to MattG of the Dish IRT group and request they do the "magic" on your account ... give'm your username, phone number, and the dishXX.sling.com server you see in the URL on DishRemoteAccess. You'll know your account has moved when the dishXX gives you a different server number.

And don't forget to post back the solution.. that way your fix might help someone, and will live on in the archive for you to find... :)
 

karlschneider

Member
Jun 2, 2011
12
0
Wagoner, OK
Thanks for the reply! The old router is a metal box but doesn't have a parallel port...just the one that goes to the modem and 8 local ports. I'll gladly try your first couple of suggestions, I think I can figure out how to do those but the info after "if you're daring enough" is a bit like Sanskrit to me :) I'm not exactly a beginner but I'm for sure no guru especially WRT networking. I sure will report back if and when I discover why this setup is so weird haha. (Do you think I am correct in assuming that the problem is not in the router itself?...I forgot to specify but the other new first one I tried (~fast) one is a TP-Link R-860 that works flawlessly on every device but the Sling setup)
thanks agn
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
Well the first thought is that some parts of the dish/sling background are not as easily favorable to change ... issues have been seen that required tweaking on the server side, that would cause the user upon next connection to get a different server ... other users could be using the same server as you with no problems.. but something in your account or your cached data get corrupted.

The second thought ... is that there's some MTU or other network issue at play that either causes the program to not get a reply from Dish/Sling properly, or to not open the communications channel properly. In most cases (10 or so that I've seen detail on) the client side shows it sees the receiver inside the house ... shows that it can get the correct port number and knows how to "do it" but that for what ever reason, the client side fails to hear a specific response or the response never gets sent, so that the client can start playing.

In those last cases ... its always seen as a 30 or so second jump in the time code of the log file ... ie.. one line will be 0:00:04.86 ... the next line would be 0:00:34.90 or something similar to show a 30 second window of time has passed and that is a magic number for TCP/IP communication that generally after that, the connection attempt is given up on.

Your log file should be at (windows XP)
C:\Documents and Settings\_XX_\Application Data\Sling Media\WebSlingPlayer
in a file named WebSlingPlayer.txt

the _XX_ is your user name on your computer

Windows Vista & 7 are C:\Users\_XX_\AppData\Roaming\Sling Media\WebSlingPlayer\WebSlingPlayer.txt

Note: caution posting publicly it does have your IP and your Finder ID in the file multiple times, PMs of the data intact or mangled IP / ID when public.

One of the key oddities is that in most situations, the SlingAdapter will play fine to any device that gets its feed from *outside*. ie. you go to a friend's house, you can stream from there.

At first this suggested that the problem was solely the gateway device not bridging correctly between ports, however we've had a user that hooked up a computer, to a switch, with their receiver ... and then it was connected to the router .. in that scenario the two (computer/receiver) would not have had any MTU issues with the gateway, nor would the gateway have been involved in UDP or TCP communications because they heard each other via direct MAC announcement through the switch. Could still be some odd MTU window on the PC side but still seems odd that a laptop would simply go outside the home network and magically work (though still possible internal MTU issue)

Anyway.. the idea with DD-WRT was for several reasons ... first of which is that your NDR3700 *can* run it ... second that if you're comfortable with it ... and can follow directions they have for flashing ... then you're more than likely able to benefit from having DD-WRT on your router which opens up additional features.

I look at it like this.. the router as the manufacturer sold you came with a specific feature set .... same hardware with a different price tag, and they might include a few extra features, all implemented in software (firmware).

or.. an auto metaphor ... School Buses have mileage limiters ... the bus can't go faster than 55 MPH ... take off the limiter and they can go 65 MPH just fine and the limit in most states is 65 or 70 now. Using DD-WRT gives you the ability that the router already has, but removes a little bit of the "safety" zone. There are posts where people have fried their radio amps for having the signal set for max power 24/7 days on end, in an already warm environment, and poof... amp dies. (yeah, TX power is one feature that is tweakable in many routers, just hidden from user control for FCC rules. I live on 7 acres 5 miles outside of a rural town ... pushing 75% power when normally set to 50% isn't something I would expect my neighbor 500 yards away to complain about to the fcc for "signal interference")

But I'm not pushing ... and if I had the funds ... just because I want to see if the problem gets resolved.. I have routers to spare here.. that I've loaded DD-WRT on and would send to someone (but for the cost of shipping)... or if you want to experiment and 40 bucks isn't too much ... Newegg has this router usually for 39.99.

And that's an open invitation to anyone else that wants to try it..
 

karlschneider

Member
Jun 2, 2011
12
0
Wagoner, OK
Okay, you've given me a lot of fat to chew on haha...one thing I believe I failed to mention is that my network is 100% ethernet, I have no wireless devices or connections at all. Don't know how much that might matter but it does seem to me it would eliminate some issues...? I'll try to explore at least a few of your suggestions as soon as I can get a little free time...thanks
Karl
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
Just an FYI .. there's a new update out for 722k's L686 and there's a supposed update for Sling Adapters bundled in it ... who knows what its for ... I've several open issues with the streaming ... it would be nice if they ironed a few out.. and even more so if they found something that would help people who can't get the sling to work inside their networks!!

Notes here: Software Release Notes week of 07/11/11
 

johnissoevil

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jan 4, 2011
167
2
Erie, PA
I just got my sling adapter delivered yesterday. I have the 722k hooked up to a brand new router I got about a month ago. It's working just fine for me, haven't had a problem yet.
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
I just got my sling adapter delivered yesterday. I have the 722k hooked up to a brand new router I got about a month ago. It's working just fine for me, haven't had a problem yet.
Try playing one of your dvr'd items in DishOnline while you're standing at TV1 (with tv1 on and watching something) and reply back if your TV1 changes to the item you attempted to play in dish online. :)
 

johnissoevil

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jan 4, 2011
167
2
Erie, PA
Try playing one of your dvr'd items in DishOnline while you're standing at TV1 (with tv1 on and watching something) and reply back if your TV1 changes to the item you attempted to play in dish online. :)

I know about that already. I actually had both DishOnline and the TV start the DVR'd show. I simply remedied it by hitting the View Live TV key on my TV1 remote, putting that back to what I was watching, while continuing to watch the DVR'd show online. Not a big deal, IMO. :)
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
Not a big deal, IMO. :)
Say that the next time your superbowl is interrupted .. say that next time the cliffhanger of some show you love is on, or say that when you're in the middle of a pay per view event.. and your TV1 changes from those shows.

And when your TV1 jumps like that, there's no "this will cancel your recording" there's no "live mode" warning. and if you're not already recording that channel, you lose any buffer that you had on that channel...

it *IS* a big deal. Does it kill puppies in a third world everytime it goes wrong ? no.. but does it perform as its supposed to? NO.

and nor does the other half of DishOnline if you're using Firefox 5 ... because the premium content requires the Widevine Media plugin ... and it only became compatible with FF4 two weeks before FF4 was replaced with FF5.

Its a poor replacement for Dish Remote Access ... but without users getting dish to focus on these problems, they will just feed you a load of horse sh*t and you've got to take it.

And remember, if it wasn't for the problems they're having now, the features we do have that are better in Dish Remote Access would already be gone (the popup every time you go to DRA ...)
 

pabeader

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jul 18, 2004
1,709
0
OTP Georgia
you don't lose any of that stuff. the tuner 1 buffer is still running right? all you have to do, right now, is hit live and then go back a few secs/mins. i'm sure this gate fixed very soon...
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
you don't lose any of that stuff. the tuner 1 buffer is still running right? all you have to do, right now, is hit live and then go back a few secs/mins. i'm sure this gate fixed very soon...
no.. you loose the buffer. Only if you were watching something that was in the dvr currently ... or had been actively recording the channel you were on. ... so you hit live tv.. and you have no goback.

and the "sure this get fixed very soon.." its been no less than 2 full months ... and *others* had seen a version of this for much longer, if they were in single mode before attempting dishonline with sling.

Prior to what it is now .. if you were in single mode ... the moment you activate the sling .. the receiver switch over into dual mode .. and then it stayed there. Now it appears if you're in single mode, it switches to dual, and then back to single mode .. I do remember people wanted it to go back to single mode if it started in single mode (gives access to PiP functions). When exactly it started performing that way (single -> dual -> back to single) I couldn't tell you ... just noticed it finally started doing that.. a while ago..

2 to 6 months its been doing this.. and they took it out of beta *and* started pushing the sling adapters with the "free after rebate" .. how else would dish define "soon" LOL :)
 

karlschneider

Member
Jun 2, 2011
12
0
Wagoner, OK
Hi again...well I got some free time and spent pretty much the entire day Friday trying to resolve this wacky problem...and got nowhere. I connected up one of those new routers (the TP-Link R860) and plugged in -only- the VIP722 and my main PC which is very much up to date with plenty of CPU speed and memory, etc (and it works fine with the old 'slow' router)...and tried everything you suggested except for that last part the DD-WRT because I don't actually have enough expertise to know how to do it. I must have tried a thousand different combinations of router, Dish and computer configurations and nothing I did would produce any streaming video. The closest I got was several errors like "your connection is too slow to stream video" or "your device began streaming video but lost the signal"...(I may have disremembered the exact wording)...I did a 'speed' test thru speedtest.net and that router gave me WAY faster numbers (around 9+ Mbps) than what I can get from the 'old' "slow" one that reports about 3 (I pay for 12M service and I can get that with no router installed...just computer direct to DSL modem)...so apparently the fast router is too "slow" and the old slow one is plenty fast. I hope I can be forgiven for thinking that's just nuckin' futs.
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
Hi again...well I got some free time and spent pretty much the entire day Friday trying to resolve this wacky problem...and got nowhere. I connected up one of those new routers (the TP-Link R860) and plugged in -only- the VIP722 and my main PC which is very much up to date with plenty of CPU speed and memory, etc (and it works fine with the old 'slow' router)...and tried everything you suggested except for that last part the DD-WRT because I don't actually have enough expertise to know how to do it. I must have tried a thousand different combinations of router, Dish and computer configurations and nothing I did would produce any streaming video. The closest I got was several errors like "your connection is too slow to stream video" or "your device began streaming video but lost the signal"...(I may have disremembered the exact wording)...I did a 'speed' test thru speedtest.net and that router gave me WAY faster numbers (around 9+ Mbps) than what I can get from the 'old' "slow" one that reports about 3 (I pay for 12M service and I can get that with no router installed...just computer direct to DSL modem)...so apparently the fast router is too "slow" and the old slow one is plenty fast. I hope I can be forgiven for thinking that's just nuckin' futs.
Well the TP-R860 isn't DD-WRT compatible (1) and can't find specs to see what speeds its truly capable of (there's a processor and ram in that thing, lessor of either will give you less performance). (2) what I did find when searching for UPnP with it ... is that there may be some issue with locked upnp openings ... ie.. one app comes in gets ports it wants, and then nothing else can get ports ...

Its not that I want to disparage TPLink .. they have their uses, but I don't rely on their hardware for gateway devices, and would only do so, if the model was listed as compatible with one of the open type firmwares... thus if I do need a feature that isn't available or a feature doesn't seem to be working with the company's own firmware, I'd have an option to re-use that device with someone else's code.

Focusing on one of the others' you've had .. the WNDR3700 ... that does support open firmware, has 8 megs of flash, 64 megs ram (a pretty good combination) The problem however, is that there has been one other case where a person used it (stock firmware), and was unable to get Sling working through it .. there's tons of plus and minus stories littered across the web in both camps.. more commonly you see information with users an Xbox or PS3's because they are the premier users of UPnP because of their online gaming features.

If I had unlimited resources, I'd send you one of my Buffalo routers with DD-WRT on it .. just for testing even.. so that you could see if a different firmware would help .. otherwise you're off in the pit of .. did this one work? no.. try the next .. did that one work? no.. try the next.. (also known as lather, rinse, repeat) or, to attempt an open firmware yourself (first timer, etc) with again no guarantee ... at least so far you do see the results of swapping.. and have something that at least points to the gateway device as the connection problem
ie, old & slow works, so you *can* get the sling to work, now it just comes to finding a newer one that not only gives you the speed you pay your ISP for, but that will also work with sling.​
The only real problem with *most* routers in doing an alternative firmware, is in turning it into a "brick" (ie. good only for paperweight). The average success rate of first timer flashing is very high ... but not 100%. If you have a family member that is in the tech field .. perhaps they have experience and could help you flash for a 6pack or a steak dinner..
 

karlschneider

Member
Jun 2, 2011
12
0
Wagoner, OK
"ie, old & slow works, so you *can* get the sling to work, now it just comes to finding a newer one that not only gives you the speed you pay your ISP for, but that will also work with sling."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, exactly...that's actually the only issue that bothers me. I just picked one router to try randomly and that TP Link one was handy, it was new and I was very sure it functioned in my network with 'normal' devices...because it did and does. I'm not really concerned about spending money, I have several hundred bucks in this stuff invested already, now it has become a matter of principle...for what I really want to accomplish as an end result, it would be simple and cheap(er) to just get another receiver from Dish and put it over there where I'm trying to get TV but I'm stubborn and I want things to work the way I think they need to :) I guess my next project will be trying the WNDR again and following your first batch of suggestions or more hoping -something- works...I'm not at all concerned about ruining it, there are plenty more for sale, I imagine. If that ends up like my previous attempts, I'll PM you and you can let me know how to get one of those Buffalo things, appropriately compensated, of course. I'm in and out so much, can't say when I'll have a chance but will keep you advised...and please know I appreciate all your efforts!
KS
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
Was just in walmart ... they have the WRT160n for 39 bucks ... the problem though ... is that the 160n v1 & v3 are supported, but the v2 is not (Cisco/Linksys used a different chipset in the V2 model, one that isn't readily supported by DD-Wrt) and you wouldn't know which version you had without opening the box..

they had right next to it, the Cisco/Linksys E1000 (one of their most basic in the newer "E" series) .. for 49 bucks but it too is only 4meg flash but has 32 megs ram would rather see 8/32 or 16/64 ... but 4 is workable.. so if that's not costly to you.. you'd have that as a tester with DD-WRT unless you want to use the WNDR3700. Either way when you're ready ... just give me a shout..
 

karlschneider

Member
Jun 2, 2011
12
0
Wagoner, OK
Hi again, I spent all morning trying again with the 3700...it works even worse than the TP Link router...(as far as Dish, I mean...it performs great just loading regular URLs) and speedtest.net gives me pretty much the full 12 Mbps I pay my ISP for)...nothing I did could convince either Dish Remote Access or Dish Online that the 722 receiver was actually connected or on-line...even though the Dish menu 6-1-9-2 shows it connected, online with a proper IP and gateway, etc. I even assigned it a fixed IP outside the DHCP range (which it appeared to accept without argument and showed up correctly) but the remote software from my PC simply continues to claim the receiver is not online or connected so of course no option to do anything except "Record this program" appears. It almost seems impossible, but all I did was unplug the cat5 wires from the 3700 and stuck them back in the old FVS318 and it all worked just like it should. I've tinkered with computers for 25 years and rarely been defeated by the damn things but I'm about ready to give up on this crazy sh*t.
 

karlschneider

Member
Jun 2, 2011
12
0
Wagoner, OK
Thanks for that info, I was able to restore the 3700 to factory firmware using the suggestions! I did it a bit differently, used one of my little HP thin clients with XP embedded that doesn't have tftp but I scrounged up a little windoze app that runs under the XP gui and I downloaded the latest image directly from Netgear...and it worked (it only took about 10 seconds!)...so I'm back to square one. Now that I know how to recover the thing I guess I'll be a little more brave haha...not that it would be a tragedy if I do fry the thing. Don't worry about me calling, I feel for you dealing with septic tank problems, been there done that and also now we are having nasty problems with the foundation on the house, 30 days of 100+ temps and no rain has made our clay soil shrink down and there's a epidemic of cracked walls hereabouts. It's always sumpin', huh? yikes
KS
 

TG2

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 7, 2011
1,380
7
Viginia
Thanks for that info, I was able to restore the 3700 to factory firmware using the suggestions! I did it a bit differently, used one of my little HP thin clients with XP embedded that doesn't have tftp but I scrounged up a little windoze app that runs under the XP gui and I downloaded the latest image directly from Netgear...and it worked (it only took about 10 seconds!)...so I'm back to square one. Now that I know how to recover the thing I guess I'll be a little more brave haha...not that it would be a tragedy if I do fry the thing. Don't worry about me calling, I feel for you dealing with septic tank problems, been there done that and also now we are having nasty problems with the foundation on the house, 30 days of 100+ temps and no rain has made our clay soil shrink down and there's a epidemic of cracked walls hereabouts. It's always sumpin', huh? yikes
KS
:) yeah.. no worries.. if you have the link you followed originally for the DD-WRT install.. paste it to me .. I'll look it over to see if anything stands out..

as for septic.. man what an ordeal.. thankfully it was the original system, from the 70's ... they used schedule 30 pipe (40 can withstand a truck running over it) and come to find out the home owner before me had been driving over that area (no wonder it broke) but the goods are that they can just "repair" everything from the house to the field ... if the field had been toast ... then it would have been 10 times more expensive because they now mandate them stupid 3 green box type septics (I often think of them as the "3 sea shells" from Sylvester Stalone's "Demolition Man" movie)

What's really funny though.. is that they put in a new 1000 gallon septic tank (those unfamiliar, its a big sealed *cement* box) and dug an 8 by 10 by 12 foot deep hole .... within 1 hour, there was a small puddle of water in the bottom.. by the next morning just before the tank arrive, the entire bottom of the hole had water an inch deep ... nice water table aye?

anyway.. go forward on the DD-WRT ... at the very least.. its a good option to allow some really nice add-ons.. not the least of which is that you can actively watch the bandwidth (use Firefox for that part) of your connection ... that's how I first learned that the actual video data stream doesn't go outside the local network (when working properly) ;) you can usually turn up the wireless power a little.. add multiple wireless SSID's and keep them separate from your private one.. some really good stuff.

Currently running 14896 on my wireless bridges and 15940 on my gateway. Bridges are Buffalo 300N's 40 bucks at newegg with 8megs flash & 32 megs ram and the gateway is a Cisco/Linksys E2100L with I think its 16 flash, and for sure 64 megs ram.. :) when I was using my older Linksys wrt54g's 8/16 was all I'd get ... and often less than 1 meg free ram in the router.. start up a torrent program and within a few hours I'd be rebooting.. now.. runs all the time no problems.. :)

The reason for the differing code version from my Bridges to the gateway ... 14896 seemed better for me at the time, than did the recent release at that time, when I originally set them up.. The revision at that time didn't seem to keep the bridge up as easily.. even 14896 didn't at first.. but it did work after setting up the watchdog .. where as the newer ones I'd tried didn't seem to keep the bridge up ... which would mean the connection would fail from PC to 722k, my bluray & even my A/V receiver.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 0, Members: 0, Guests: 0)

Top